Hog wrapping a bail out hose under a loop on a rebreather.

[Jack Hammer]

@stuartv You do you. When you are essentially telling everyone who disagrees and does it different from you they are stupid and ignorant it doesnt make you look like you have much of a clue that there is more than one way to do things and different people have their reasons for making those choices.

 

[PfcAJ]

@stuartv , cars are all laid out the same. Gas pedal, brake pedal, steering wheel.

The chaos you’re describing of having a different control layout for each is the same thing your advocating for here with scuba.

Go travel somewhere and drive on the other side of the road with a backwards car. It’s hard mode. Why? Consistency works.

 

[vioch]

design all the automobiles

It is а good thing, that car manufactures are smart enough not to swap pedals))))

 

[stuartv]

@stuartv You do you. When you are essentially telling everyone who disagrees and does it different from you they are stupid and ignorant it doesnt make you look like you have much of a clue that there is more than one way to do things and different people have their reasons for making those choices.

I didn't realize the GUE CCR design was "everyone". I think the Meg is a well-designed CCR. Ditto for the X. Obviously, I also think the rEvo is well-designed. There are quite a few that I think are well-designed.

As I said, I think putting valve handwheels up on the top, for the reason that it makes it "like" a completely different diving platform, is dumb. If there is some other reason, I'm all ears, but that is basically what I got out of that GUE blog. I think that reason for doing that is dumb. I think having them up there - if that is the reason why - is dumb. Every other CCR that is well-designed (in just my opinion, of course) does not have that particular design characteristic. So, I guess I'm not the only one who thinks putting them up there is not the best place to put them.

And, as I said, purposely making a completely new tool be "like" a totally different, old tool, just for "consistency" is dumb. If they end up alike, it should be because the design serves its purpose best.

It's like screwdrivers. A traditional screwdriver has a simple handle that is easy to hold and turn. What if somebody made a completely new screwdriver that is driven by electricity? If they still made it with that same basic shape and way of holding it, just to be "like" the original, how well would that work?

As it turns out, it does work. It's been done. You can use an electric screwdriver that you still hold the old-fashioned way. But, if you're stepping up to more extreme driving of screws, is that really the best way to design your tool? No. That is why we now have electric screwdrivers that are shaped like a drill. Because it's easier to hold and drive your extreme screws that way. If GUE were designing the extreme electric screwdriver, you'd still be holding it like a normal, traditional screwdriver, but it would have all kinds of whacky bracing added on, to help you hold it with enough torque to keep it from turning in your hand. Instead of just embracing a new design paradigm to match the complete change in underlying technology.

I mean, really, you're accusing me of saying it can only be done one way - my way. I think that shows you REALLY have missed my point. My point is that the GUE design suggests you can only do it one way. That's why there is only one approved GUE CCR, with one config, right? And my point (beyond the point of doing things for the right reason) is that there ARE a lot of ways to do things and whatever works best for the dive should be how you do it. That is why, unlike at least one poster, MY idea of how many tools there are to choose from includes more than 2 open circuit platforms.

On CCR, it seems to me that a new CCR diver only has the actual need for something that is pretty different than someone doing an extreme cave dive. And just like they progress from a single tank rig to a BP/W or SM rig when their diving advances to the point of NEEDING those things, we should embrace that what they start with may be all they ever need, and keeping it simple should be a choice we make. Then let them learn new things and develop new muscle memory and adopt a more "capable" platform when and IF they ever need it. Which most won't.

This has really gone off topic from the OP.

I explained how I was taught to use a hog looped long hose for my BO. And I explained why it makes sense to me. I addressed the knock that somebody posted about not being able to do it that way if you use a gag strap. I gave my thoughts on alternative ways of carrying your OC bail out 2nd stage. Carrying mine on a LH and bungee necklace is relatively new to me, compared to how I was doing it before (rigged on a cylinder, carried on my left - i.e. "normal" BO/deco cylinder configuration). I am sincerely interested in discussion on the subject. Especially if anyone has any new points on the subject that haven't already been posted.

If someone has a foolproof way of carrying a 2nd stage stowed on a deco/BO cylinder where it will never get accidentally knocked loose or out of position, yet still be instantly deployable, I would really like to see a picture or video of how to do that. Even if I don't use it on my BO, I would use it on my deco cylinders.

 

[Wibble]

There isn’t a whole host of regs for OC diving.

Single tank and doubles. And everything is in the same place for both.

Gosh.

Not on the boats I dive from! Yeah, sure, the Hog loop dominates OC but there’s other configs such as individual cylinders with recreational rigs, twinsets with the manifold off, left and right routing, two short hoses, large 15 litre with 3 litre pony attached, etc, etc.

 

[PfcAJ]

Gosh.

Not on the boats I dive from! Yeah, sure, the Hog loop dominates OC but there’s other configs such as individual cylinders with recreational rigs, twinsets with the manifold off, left and right routing, two short hoses, large 15 litre with 3 litre pony attached, etc, etc.

Chaos.

 

[Wibble]

This is from the GUE blog article linked earlier (The Thought Process Behind GUE’s CCR Configuration):



That is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen published by GUE. Just my opinion, of course.

It boils down to: "We put the valves on top, because that's where we're used to having them in back mount doubles."

How much GUE training is done a certain way because you have to worry about the handwheels on BM doubles getting rolled off by a cave roof or a line? And yet they thought it was a good idea to put their CCR handwheels in the same place??

But, apparently, GUE divers are going to jump right over from OC to CCR and start running 5 miles back in a cave the next week? So, they need muscle memory to carry over from OC? Because they aren't going to take the time with their new CCR to build new muscle memory before they start doing the kind of dives with it where you NEED that muscle memory?

Designing your new, fundamentally different tool to have the same weaknesses as your old tool, in order to keep it "familiar" to the user sounds like trying to take shortcuts, to me. All the while, preserving and embedding weaknesses into the next generation that you could have taken the opportunity to eliminate.

I will at least give them credit, though, for getting the BO reg setup right (long hose, hog looped, with 2nd stage on a bungee necklace).

A lot of my "problems" with trying to understand the longhose on a CCR is related to something I find completely ridiculous; the claim that the open circuit shutdown drills are so engrained in GUE divers that they are incapable of using the "standard" inverted cylinder CCR pattern and protocols.

For a start there’s no central isolation manifold which in OC is the first valve to shut down to preserve gas (although I was taught in Fundies to close the right post first).

But most importantly the CCR configuration and operating procedures are utterly different from open circuit.

Throughout this thread there have been some excellent arguments for the longhose, particularly in more extreme CCR diving deep and/or advanced cave.

Am still struggling to understand the GUE JJ configuration for general CCR diving aside from it fitting GUE's goals of regular team practice and one rule for all.

Anyway, for those of you who dive with that GUE rig, good on you. As ever the GUE skill standards are excellent It’s most definitely not for everyone though.

 

[Wibble]

Chaos.

Why do you say that?

It’s not a problem providing that the person is well practiced. Who are you to suggest they dive according to current fashion? They’ve probably dived for years in that configuration and haven’t died once in that time.

 

[lermontov]

and haven’t died once in that time.

you cant really know that

 

[kierentec]

I didn't realize the GUE CCR design was "everyone". I think the Meg is a well-designed CCR. Ditto for the X. Obviously, I also think the rEvo is well-designed. There are quite a few that I think are well-designed.

As I said, I think putting valve handwheels up on the top, for the reason that it makes it "like" a completely different diving platform, is dumb. If there is some other reason, I'm all ears, but that is basically what I got out of that GUE blog. I think that reason for doing that is dumb. I think having them up there - if that is the reason why - is dumb. Every other CCR that is well-designed (in just my opinion, of course) does not have that particular design characteristic. So, I guess I'm not the only one who thinks putting them up there is not the best place to put them.

And, as I said, purposely making a completely new tool be "like" a totally different, old tool, just for "consistency" is dumb. If they end up alike, it should be because the design serves its purpose best.

It's like screwdrivers. A traditional screwdriver has a simple handle that is easy to hold and turn. What if somebody made a completely new screwdriver that is driven by electricity? If they still made it with that same basic shape and way of holding it, just to be "like" the original, how well would that work?

As it turns out, it does work. It's been done. You can use an electric screwdriver that you still hold the old-fashioned way. But, if you're stepping up to more extreme driving of screws, is that really the best way to design your tool? No. That is why we now have electric screwdrivers that are shaped like a drill. Because it's easier to hold and drive your extreme screws that way. If GUE were designing the extreme electric screwdriver, you'd still be holding it like a normal, traditional screwdriver, but it would have all kinds of whacky bracing added on, to help you hold it with enough torque to keep it from turning in your hand. Instead of just embracing a new design paradigm to match the complete change in underlying technology.

I mean, really, you're accusing me of saying it can only be done one way - my way. I think that shows you REALLY have missed my point. My point is that the GUE design suggests you can only do it one way. That's why there is only one approved GUE CCR, with one config, right? And my point (beyond the point of doing things for the right reason) is that there ARE a lot of ways to do things and whatever works best for the dive should be how you do it. That is why, unlike at least one poster, MY idea of how many tools there are to choose from includes more than 2 open circuit platforms.

On CCR, it seems to me that a new CCR diver only has the actual need for something that is pretty different than someone doing an extreme cave dive. And just like they progress from a single tank rig to a BP/W or SM rig when their diving advances to the point of NEEDING those things, we should embrace that what they start with may be all they ever need, and keeping it simple should be a choice we make. Then let them learn new things and develop new muscle memory and adopt a more "capable" platform when and IF they ever need it. Which most won't.

This has really gone off topic from the OP.

I explained how I was taught to use a hog looped long hose for my BO. And I explained why it makes sense to me. I addressed the knock that somebody posted about not being able to do it that way if you use a gag strap. I gave my thoughts on alternative ways of carrying your OC bail out 2nd stage. Carrying mine on a LH and bungee necklace is relatively new to me, compared to how I was doing it before (rigged on a cylinder, carried on my left - i.e. "normal" BO/deco cylinder configuration). I am sincerely interested in discussion on the subject. Especially if anyone has any new points on the subject that haven't already been posted.

If someone has a foolproof way of carrying a 2nd stage stowed on a deco/BO cylinder where it will never get accidentally knocked loose or out of position, yet still be instantly deployable, I would really like to see a picture or video of how to do that. Even if I don't use it on my BO, I would use it on my deco cylinders.

I appreciate your thought process and the questions you are asking, I (along with many of the prominent CCR instructors in Florida and Mexico) have been there before. I used to use the same arguments against the GUE rebreather configuration until I really understood the “why”. When it hit me, it hit me hard, changing the trajectory of my career.

Your example of the screwdriver is an excellent one. However, if you look at it from the perspective of the “why” GUE configures it’s rebreathers the way they do, it may give you a slightly different result.

In your example of the screwdriver, the screw still turns righty-tighty, correct? Meaning, the core of the system is still the same. You might hold the powered drill at a different angle, but it’s function is still essentially the same. Now, imagine if someone said “well, the power drill is a different tool, so screws driven by a powered drill should turn lefty-tighty because it’s easier for me for whatever reason”. Then, when the power drill fails and the screw needs to be tightened quickly to, say maybe, stop a leak or something, old muscle memory for operating the screwdriver will take over. How efficiently do you think the operator will be in handling the “emergency”?

Within the GUE system, certain things like longhose deployment, valve manipulation, unclipping a longhose, etc. are deeply engrained into the muscle memory so they can be recalled efficiently and without thought. The ease of transitioning that core foundation to as many configurations and environments as possible is significantly higher, and far more efficient than changing everything each time. Especially when you expect to move from CCR to OC regularly as GUE divers often do (different tools for different jobs, but core function remains the same).

CCR diving is only dramatically different from OC if you make it that way. If you treat them similarly, it’s AMAZING how much it simplifies your diving and increases your overall enjoyment.