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Hey, Lake Pleasant Vista Point Divers and Instructors!!!

Discussion in 'Southwestern Region' started by Jax, Mar 6, 2012.

  1. pdelannoy

    pdelannoy Contributor

    Dear Rob,

    Here’s the problem with your position. First, you responded to second-hand post made by another member of the board that reposted something I wrote somewhere else. You’ve made judgments about my dive procedures without bothering to ask or find out any details about what I’m doing. You’ve restated dogma. Your position is entirely hypocritical since in other forums you openly admit not following the rules yourself.
    You openly admit solo diving, making visual jumps, and the fact that sometimes you don’t run a primary line from open water into the cavern to the main line of the cave. Here are the quotes from posts you recently made:

    “ Close to the last dozen new caves (to me) have been solo. And almost all off the virgin passage I've been in has been solo”

    “I found myself doing some simple visual jumps early in my cave diving. Nothing major, the most common was Double Lines passage in JB - visual to and from it. For those unfamiliar with it, it's a short bypass of the mainline. I'd take it on the way in and take the gold line on the way out. Then I started doing some other visuals in more demanding areas but again all circuit type stuff.”

    “As for JB, I've done several hundred dives there. I dive that cave at least once a week. If I were ever to exit and find visibility completely gone I would deploy a safety to exit. I've practiced this to ensure I could get out. I don't deny this, even to my students. Yes, I'm taking a risk but it's a very calculated and thought out risk.”

    My only point here is that you don’t always follow the rules as they are taught by the certification agencies-and you are an instructor.
    Secondly, in another forum titled, ”Thanks to Ginnie Springs for recovering my stolen Deco bottle”, Jim Wyatt describes the loss and return of his deco bottle from the cavern zone at Ginnie. I found the posts in this section ironic, given your position here in this forum since there seems to be a problem with OW divers taking deco cylinders at Ginnie and perhaps, Little River. What I found most interesting was that no one suggested taking the bottle with them and carrying the bottle throughout the dive. Several divers suggested hiding their bottles-no one ever mentioned tying their bottle to the main line. In one case, a diver commented about hiding the bottle and in your response you joked about that. I noticed the entire absence of any sort of mention that this might not be a good idea since if the cave gets silted out, they might not be able to find their deco gas. You didn’t mention this to them…

    You can’t have it both ways, Rob. Or at least, I’m not going to allow you to talk to me like I’m some sort of idiot and get away with it.

    Lake Pleasant covers 10,000 acres and is 260 feet deep. If I choose to run lines, and create dives that have never been done before, that is my business. If I choose to dive those lines, holding to the highest cave training standards including the risks associated with those standards-it’s my business. This includes doing proper jumps at junctions, running a primary to my main line, tying off my stage cylinders and deco bottles-holding exactly to my training-that’s my business. If I’ve done all this so I can come to cave country and have a seamless transition to the real thing that is reason enough for all my trouble. And now, since the OW season is in full swing I have to deal with the possibility of losing cylinders-how I deal with that is my business. My risks are just as “calculated” and “thought out” as yours.

    Peter Delannoy
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2012
    ScubaSteve2000 and scubajcf like this.
  2. Dive-aholic

    Dive-aholic Contributor

    # of Dives:
    Location: North Florida - Marianna area

    If you're going to quote me then please learn what the rules are and do it in context.

    There is no rule against solo diving. There never has been. Yes, I solo dive, quite frequently as a matter of fact. Many of the dives I do are actually safer solo than with a buddy. So what's your point?

    I did some visuals early in my cave diving. That has been several years and before I was a cave instructor. I've learned from my mistakes and I no longer do visuals. Again, what's your point?

    As for what I do in JB, I've already explained myself. Not seeing your point there either.

    To suggest that cave divers keep decompression cylinders with them just shows your ignorance of cave diving procedures. You can try to twist my words all you want, but the simple matter is you are doing decompression dives in open water and clipping your decompression bottles off on the line and swimming away from them. Divers have died doing that. If you want to do it that's your choice but when I see someone post something like this I will post my thoughts on it.
    scubajcf likes this.
  3. PhxSki

    PhxSki Contributor

    Not to change the subject however, I'm in full agreement with Pete in that Lake Pleasant is a real asset to recreational divers. On the other hand, I know divers who wouldn't get their equipment dirty diving in Lake Pleasant.

    A few issues. First, when I tell non-divers that I dive the lake I always get a strange look followed by the question "... so what is there to see down there"? There's no question that it's not the ideal place to "see things" however, I explain that diving is just like any other sport, the more you do it the better you get at it. When on dive boats, you can always spot the warm water, vacation divers. They're the ones fumbling around with their equipment and, once in the water, unable to mainatin boyancy.

    Second, if you're fortunate enough to have a dive buddie who has a boat and is willing to invite you and your fellow "Mud-Divers" along (thanks Mike), there are places in the lake that have great structure. About a month ago, prior to the water clouding, we dove the "1702 Wall" site which, at the time, had 60' to 70' visibility. Needless to saw, it was impressive to see the entire wall (approximately 100' from top to bottom).

    Third, diving has a significant social aspect to it. Since I started diving, I've made a number of good freinds and acquaintances who I get to see on a regular basis at the lake.

    Lake Pleasant may the a mud hole to some divers however, to me and my "Mud-Diver" buddies (i.e. divers who want to dive more than a couple times a year), it has been and will be a wonderful asset.

    Proud to be a "Mud-Diver", Bill
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  4. Dive-aholic

    Dive-aholic Contributor

    # of Dives:
    Location: North Florida - Marianna area
    I agree that Lake Pleasant has a lot to offer for divers. I've done over 100 dives there and practiced lots of skills. I also knew a lot of divers and instructors who wouldn't even consider going to Lake Pleasant. I was briefly affiliated with a dive shop in Tucson that took several trips a years to Mexico for training. When I suggested they begin taking divers to Lake Pleasant because they might get some customers that might not have been willing to drive 6 hours into Mexico I was scoffed at. So my wife and I began taking our own students outside of the shop to the lake and were much more successful in numbers of students than we had been working with the shop. Lake Pleasant does have a lot to offer, but appropriate diving protocols still need to be followed.
    scubajcf likes this.
  5. Rich Keller

    Rich Keller Contributor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Long Island NY
    What locations would you recommend for someone diving the lake for the first time interested in sites above 60'?
  6. scubajcf

    scubajcf Contributor

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Arizona
    Most shore diving sites at Lake Pleasant are good for beginners. The lake is a sloping shoreline. The easiest shore entry is probably Sunset Cove / Beismeyer Point. However, Desert Tortoise Road has an easy entry too. The biggest issue with both these sites are the heavy "day users". From fishermen to jet skis. Vista Point is a bit harder entry (and gets worse as the lake levels drop), however there are less "day users".

    Sunset and DT have paved roads sunk under the water which makes for easy navigation.

    My suggestion is, if you have not dove Lake Pleasant, go with someone who knows it well.

    I dive up there at least two weekends per month. If you ever want to go up and do a fun dive, I am happy to go with you.

    ScubaSteve2000 and Dive-aholic like this.
  7. Rich Keller

    Rich Keller Contributor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Long Island NY
    From what I have read here so far about Lake Pleasant there does not seem to be anything to see at 100' that can not be seen better at 30' so I am planning to bring the minimum amount of equipment on the plane with me and renting either a 30 or 40 cu/ft tank to dive the lake and the Salt River. With this amount of equipment the shore entry will not be a problem so what is in the water at any given site would be of more intrest to me. If this trip pans out I would be flying in and out on a Saturday so Sunday 7/29 would be the only weekend day I could dive there. I would be interested in diving with you if that fits into you schedule.

    PS: What kind of water temps can I expect to find at the lake and in the river at that time of year?
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  8. Jax

    Jax Deplorable American ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: AZ TX
    What is interesting about the Salt river is that people come out from Phoenix, rent tubes, get on a bus, and tube down a few miles. Divers can also ride the bus. Divers will also go to Sheep's crossing and such. Divers look for lost stuff -- Some pretty neat finds can be pulled from the water. The Salt is about 20-30 feet wide and averages 4'-6' deep.

    Lake Pleasant is behind a new dam, the old dam was blown through and still exists under the water. Some use it as practice tech dives, and pdellony has run some lines out a Vista Point, which, as I understand it, have been snagged by a few fishermen.

    Also, there is a ramp and rail that leads down next to Vista Point - helpful to get through the "layers" of vis when it happens.

    I still haven't found the treasure chest, though . . .
    ScubaSteve2000 likes this.
  9. scubajcf

    scubajcf Contributor

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Arizona
    The rail is North / NNW of Vista Point. The Treasure Chest is in about 90' sitting on top of the rail.

    ---------- Post added ----------

    Personally, I dive the lake all the time and enjoy the deep walls, the rail and several other spots in the lake that are sub-30 0r 40 feet. 7/29 is a bit far away. I think I will be in town, which means we will probably be up at the lake. Private Message me as the time gets closer and we can organize something.

    Water temps in the shallows will probably be in the low 80's in late July.
  10. AbyssalPlains

    AbyssalPlains Contributor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    This whole discussion is beside the point. The point is that if a diver comes across gas supplies tied off under water, leave 'em alone. Period. The purpose, protocol, intent of the dive and whether or not there is anything "worthwhile" to see is nobody's business except the diver who put those bottles there.
    pdelannoy and ScubaSteve2000 like this.

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