"Helpful" male dive buddies

[Histrix]

Why are these big brothers feeling compelled to be so "helpful" if your husband is your buddy and you two are doing good mutual buddy checks? Am I missing something here?

I don't have any idea why they're doing it. Maybe it's the fact that they have several decades and an order of magnitude more dives than us, and we are new to the area. Or maybe it's the fact that I'm a relatively cautious/conservative diver, so they assume I'm a noob.

 

[RayKay]

Never had this with diving equipment/checks, but have encountered this kind of thing in other areas. I understand well your prickliness about it, however, especially if you notice they are "targeting" you only and not your also-new-to-diving husband! I am quite competent, and have a dive buddy for checks, so it would come across to me as demeaning in its implications (not only to me, but to my dive buddy husband!). They may just be being "protective" but quite frankly I am not a woman who likes that kind of dynamic being fostered on me.

I would just very firmly (but respectfully) ask them not to touch your equipment or you without asking first (there may be times they do see something very amiss and wish to help out). My guess is they will cut it out.

 

[maniago]

Well I didn't realize there were some many man-haters in the female dive community. I'm glad I read this thread since the first post. Chivalry is dead . I think I'll go hang with the lesbian divers; at least they understand how guys work.

 

[Quero]

The distinction between chivalrous behavior and condescending behavior may not be clear to you, maniago. Chivalry is not dead nor unappreciated. If you have read all the posts in the thread, you will see that none of us is likely to refuse help with heavy gear bags or the offer of a stabilizing hand as we stand with heavy tanks on our smaller frames. But condescension is unwelcome. A general guideline to follow when dealing with the women divers you meet: Treat us as you would want us to treat you. Don't baby us or treat us like children or subordinates; simply be there for us as you would be for any good friend and you will be fine. Wanting men to treat us with respect and courtesy does not make us man-haters. Treating women in a patronizing way is wrong, and calling it chivalry is a rationalization.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's common courtesy to ask before touching anyone else's dive gear ... male or female. If you don't ask, you're being discourteous ... regardless of gender. It's little different than what usually occurs on dive boats where the crew is conditioned (or compelled by policy) to treat everyone on board as though they just finished OW class yesterday ... well-meaning, perhaps, but a statement that they're assuming the person they're trying to "help" is incompetent.

In the OP's case, how you deal with it is really a matter of choice ... but if it bothers you, definitely find a way to say so. Sounds to me like those guys mean well. Perhaps something as simple as "Thanks, but I prefer to be asked first" ... unless they're total morons, they'll get the clue.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tracydr]

My husband and I do good buddy checks. Nobody else ever seems to want to touch our gear. I think if you look confident and competent it makes a difference. The only thing we ever get are questions about the configuration ( DIR).
make sure you are confident about getting your gear on and not showing anxiety about your dive. Put gear together at home many times if you're a new diver or haven't dived in awhile so that you're not fumbling around or making mistakes/ forgetting things and others will be less likely to try to help you.
go on dives by yourself several times so that when you're with a group you look good, too.
I sometimes will point things out to somebody who looks anxious or is having difficulty but I never touch their gear unless I ask if they'd like help.

---------- Post added June 18th, 2013 at 07:10 AM ----------

Yes, it happens a lot, and in fact this exact thing actually happened to me last month. IMO, it's entirely different from carrying heavy gear, pulling out a chair, or opening a door for a woman, which are simple courtesies. This checking of the inflator or testing a reg or tugging at releases is supervisory in nature rather than courteous, and any guy that can't understand this needs to think about it a bit more. If you can't imagine a guy reaching over to another guy who is not his dive buddy and without being asked checking an inflator or tugging on releases, then why on earth would it be okay to do so with a woman who just happens to be on the same boat?

In my case last month, I was part of a tech sidemount instructor course, and in the process of performing a head-to-toe pre-dive check, my assigned buddy for the dive reached out and inflated my wing. This was already our third day of the course (and keep in mind that this was a tech-level course and was an instructor-development course on top of that), and by this point those guys should have got the message not to touch me and not to swoop in to "correct" my placement of bungies on the tanks, etc., but nevertheless he did reach over and test my inflator. I snapped at him, "Don't touch. When you do a head-to-toe you may comment or ask but you may not touch another diver's gear without permission!" He was offended and rolled his eyes, but by that point I didn't care. Gentle requests, joking explanations, "thanks-but-I'm-okay" delivered with a smile, none of it worked with this guy. The only message some men can understand is a slap down. This same guy had earlier physically snatched a cam band out of my hands to rethread the buckle when I was working on it after having slipped a weight on it. I'm sure he would claim he was only being "helpful," but I saw it as interference. He could easily have said, "Would you like me to rethread that for you?" or while doing the pre-dive check, "Is your inflater connected properly?" Moral #1 of the story: when dealing with a jerk, be direct. Moral #2, and a point I brought up with the other candidates in our debrief, even if you're dealing with learners or inexperienced divers, you do them no favors by being overly solicitous--in fact, you hinder their development of self-sufficiency. If you think they need to correct some gear issue, tell them what you've noticed and let them sort it out, or at most tell them and offer to sort it out for them.

Keep your paws to yourself.

I guess I haven't dived around jerks like this before! Yuck!

 

[Quero]

Tracy, I'm certain that there's a cultural element to this as well. Some of our North American buddies who have responded to this thread express an old-fashioned belief that it's men's unquestionable duty to guide and protect "womenfolk" (anybody who uses this term is automatically part of that cohort) in whatever way they--the men--see fit and regardless of whether that guidance and protection is welcome. That's perhaps a generational culture where men who are senior citizens just haven't kept up with the times. In my case, the culture wasn't coming from some misguidedly "genteel" attitude towards women but rather one of a clear belief in male superiority--and in particular young, virile, male superiority--quite typical of the country this young man is from. Not only would he persist in believing I was incapable of doing things, he also didn't believe he needed to listen to anything a woman might have to say. This is characteristic of a national culture where men's and women's societal roles have not shifted as much as they have in Western Europe and the Americas.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Chivalry is dead.

Chivalry is offering her an option; churlishness is the presumption of accepting your offer on her behalf.

 

[drrich2]

Or maybe it's the fact that I'm a relatively cautious/conservative diver, so they assume I'm a noob.

TracyDr already addressed this issue, but I wanted to link it to your statement. This is strictly speculative on my part, but there is the possibility that your 'cautious/conservative' outlook affects how you act and carry yourself in a way that some others pick up on. Your dive count is high enough I wouldn't have thought so, but you identify it as a potential factor.

The idea that they're older could be a factor for another reason. I used to work with an old woman (60's) who could say some of the most blatant things, and chided a young female co-worker for gaining some weight and (get ready for this) patted her on the fanny when she did it. I point this out to illustrate some older people seem to 'take liberties' a bit more, perhaps figuring that due to the age gap it's more likely to be perceived as cute and harmless, rather than sexual harassment.

The issue of whether men would treat each other as you were is interesting and there may be more to it. First off, men are often regarded as prone to be territorial, competitive and a bit proud, so the need for 'respect' (not just respect, but a kind of guardedness) can impact how we relate to each other. The absence of that guardedness might lead a man to be less cautious with a woman, without patronizing intent.

And some old hands at a challenging activity (which scuba can be) may consider themselves showing an interest and being courteous, reassuring and supportive by 'looking after' a newbie of either gender.

All that said, you're not a newbie, and I don't think people should put their hands on you or your gear without asking.

Richard.

 

[agilis]

Tracy, I'm certain that there's a cultural element to this as well. Some of our North American buddies who have responded to this thread express an old-fashioned belief that it's men's unquestionable duty to guide and protect "womenfolk" (anybody who uses this term is automatically part of that cohort) in whatever way they--the men--see fit and regardless of whether that guidance and protection is welcome. That's perhaps a generational culture where men who are senior citizens just haven't kept up with the times. In my case, the culture wasn't coming from some misguidedly "genteel" attitude towards women but rather one of a clear belief in male superiority--and in particular young, viral, male superiority--quite typical of the country this young man is from. Not only would he persist in believing I was incapable of doing things, he also didn't believe he needed to listen to anything a woman might have to say. This is characteristic of a national culture where men's and women's societal roles have not shifted as much as they have in Western Europe and the Americas.

A few months ago there was a question posted here from a female instructor who was terminally frustrated with one of her students, a young man from such a culture as you describe. As I recall, he eventually admitted he could not take anything she said seriously, or follow her instructions because she is a woman. He just did what he wanted because he could not follow instructions received from a woman. Some suggested he transfer to another instructor. Better, I think, he move to another country.

Unfortunately, there are some people who are never going to accept assimilation into cultures with values we respect even if some of us do not always live according to them. I once had an argument with a rug merchant in Union, NJ about denying citizenship and legal status to non-members of the religion that predominate in a nation. Not here, though. Other places where his form of organized lunacy was the norm.

"This is democracy, right? What majority wants is law, right?" I attempted to explain constitutional rights, prohibitions and limitations (however imperfectly observed) in constitutional amendments like our Bill of Rights, and the differences between a democratic republic and anarchy, but he was having none of it.

His arguments were entirely specious and without any purpose other than advancing his agenda. This discussion was in front of his kids. He began to grit his teeth and spit (not easy unless you practice) because, having taught at university for decades I had better skills, and also because he was mouthing vile easily exposed madness.

As a old man I get some elements of the condescension directed toward women. Certainly not all of it, but some. Being a crusty old bastard I have long ago abandoned most forms of polite behavior in some situations. Maybe this is because I never have been brainwashed with the need to be ladylike.

"Hey old timer, can I show you how that works? Run your hoses like this, and put this here, and..." can be dangerous things to say to me.