Hey Mark, keep us posted as to how it goes ...
Help! Need to use drysuit next week - how?
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trevinkorea
Contributor
I'm not an instructor or even a really expereinced diver but the majority of dives I've done have been dry.
And, as a self taught drysuit diver I thought I would help you out or at least try to.
I'm sad to see that other more experienced divers won't offer some advise. It sounds like you are going to do the dive regardless of what anyone here says and I thought people would at least try to help you out. After all, it is better to offer some advise than to ignor your request and let you get injured because of our pigheadedness.
Thanks for posting the one helpful and informative post. Sorry I can't remember you title. I'm happy to see that someone will try to help this guy out. A few basic tips could well make the difference between a terrible dive (and it's probably going to be) and a new statistic.
Courses are great if they are helpful but sometimes you got to jump in without adaquate training and more information is always a good thing with things go wrong. I am speaking purely in a professional situation here. For a recreational diver to unnecessarily put thier safety at risk is SIMPLY STUPID.
As with the other posts, I do think it is best to get proper training and any commentsI give are simply my expereince and not to be taken as advice therefore don't blame me if you get injured.
1) The latex seals should be tight enough to stop the water from entering but not too tight for comfort. If the seals are stiff (new) or haven't been used for a while, I find it useful to stretch them over a tank or a bucket for several hours. It loosened mine up.
2) Generally people will tell you not to fold a latex neck seal and really there is no need to but if the seal is too tight or if you have a pronounced adam's apply I found it better to fold over the seal to the lower portion of the neck. This helped to maintain a seal and was far more comfortable and less constricting that laying the seal flat. It is very important not to have any folds or kinks in the seal though. It must be completely flat around the circumfrance of your neck.
3) Yes, always ensure that the shiny smooth side of a neo seal is against the skin. If the smooth side is not, you will never maintain a seal. Same as the neck seal, if your wrist seals are too tight I have found it helpful to stretch them over a fairly thick beer bottle to get them more comfortable. Of course if they fit well this is unnecessary and may actually stretch the seals especially in the short term. My experience.
4) If you have a shoulder dump, simply raising your arm will not necessarily purge the suit adaquately. First you need to check the adjustment. Is it set to dump automatically or do you need to push it to activate the dump valve. You will need to research your particular valve. Additionally, I find it hard to dump with a shoulder valve but if I bend my elbow (kind of like a chicken wing) it helps and if necessary, I do simulated arm curls to force (pump) the air out. Of course you valve will have to be open for this to work. Important - if your shoulder dump does not work and you don't want to flood your suit (flooding in an emergency is the best option to purge your suit quickly but it is really cold) you will need to pull the valve away from the suit a little or as necessary especially if it has been plugged by your undergarments. Note - make sure you have good quality undergarments that will not cause threads or lint to enter the valves. This could result in a valve failure and a terrible dive. Trust me on this!
5) After many years of trying to get feet up, I finally accomplished the task. I wanted to do this just so I could practice the skill but for some reason it was the one thing I couldn't do. to recover I found that a simple summer sult is not the only way. You will have to practice to recover from a feet up situation. For me I kick myself right. I have never taken a drysuit course so I may have missed out on this skill.
6) In addition to ensuring your weighting and trim are addressed, it is critical that you vent some air before beginning your assent. If you don't you will be bursting through the surface like a rocket. Dump enough air to become a little heavy and then kick yourself up through the assent and DON'T FORGET YOU MUST DUMP BOTH YOUR SUIT AND WING. I put this in all caps because i made a really critical mistake and hope you will not. Diving dry is really not a big deal but if you forget any of the little details they could result in a really major problem. This is why most recommend a dry course.
7) If your boots are reasonably well fit you won't blow off a fin but should you they can be a serious pain to get back on. Also a personal experience which unfortunately happened around 100 feet down. If you are really worried about blowing a fin or going feet up ankle wieghts may be in order. The worst that will happen is that you will become a human rotor tiller but at least you won't do a feet first assent. When I first started dry I found the ankle wieghts very helpful. Now I don't use them but i would if I thaught that feet up was going to be a problem.
8) I have never used a full face mask so i can't comment but if i do I will probably not take the course unless I happened to hear about one. I think they are pretty rare and many of those who actually teach the specialties don't know much to begin with. Just my unfortunate experience.
9) Same as before, squat and hold the neck seal open but make sure it is well vented before jumping in to avoid a sudden flood.
10)If use both a front and rear zip and the rear zip is a little stiff and can limit your ability to reach back. Get confortable with it and ensure you can still reach your tank valves.
11) Prior to assent you must vent your air. Drysuit dumps don't vent all that fast so you can become boyant before you have had time to vent fully. If this was my first time I would completely squeeze the suit before I even thought about going up and use my wing for any boyancy needs on the way up. Remember that even if your suit is fully squeezed at depth the air will expand and you will need to dump on the way up as well. I found it best to leave the dump valve open on the assent and continuousely squeeze the suit. it's uncomfortable but safer to keep the suit empty on the assent until you have practiced and mastered the drysuit skills.
12) I would add only enough air so that you can stay warm and avoid uncomfortable squeeze. The less air you have in your suit the less that could expand and cuase a boyant assent. When i first practiced in a drysuit I learned that less was best when it came to air in my suit. It also reduces the ammount of lead you will need. Just make sure there is enough so that you don't get hickies all over the place. This was particularily important when I expereinced an uncomfortable squeeze in sensitive areas.
13) Weightin is the same as in a wet suit. YOU WILL NEED TO FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF. It varies quite a bit on your personal body, undergarments, duit construction and fit and whatever other equipment you will be using.
As mentioned before this is not in any way to be considered instructional. I am not an instructor and have never been trained in drysuit diving. I have limited experience and therefore don't know anything.
If you choose to listen to any of my ramblings that is your choice and 100% your responsibility.
A final note - many people here on this board seem to be crazy about taking courses. My experience is that courses are nothing more than a tax in many cases. Take the deep diver PADI course for example. I did a few dives past 60 or 70 feet. My instructor showed me that colors dissappear at depth and the tennis ball gets smaller. Don't we all know this before we finish elementary school? I have talked to others who have had the same experience with drysuit courses. Why jump on a guy who is smart enough to realize when something is really a waste of money.
I do agree that courses can be very useful and if put together properly can be a very wise choice but with the huge number of incompetant under-expereinced so called "instructors" out there that we would actually be better off to practice the skills with a mentor or at least do our own research and practice the skills.
I think this would turn out better divers than uninformed card holders that are dillusional enough to beleive that a little peice of plastic actually suggests they are qualified and skilled in a particular area?
And, as a self taught drysuit diver I thought I would help you out or at least try to.
I'm sad to see that other more experienced divers won't offer some advise. It sounds like you are going to do the dive regardless of what anyone here says and I thought people would at least try to help you out. After all, it is better to offer some advise than to ignor your request and let you get injured because of our pigheadedness.
Thanks for posting the one helpful and informative post. Sorry I can't remember you title. I'm happy to see that someone will try to help this guy out. A few basic tips could well make the difference between a terrible dive (and it's probably going to be) and a new statistic.
Courses are great if they are helpful but sometimes you got to jump in without adaquate training and more information is always a good thing with things go wrong. I am speaking purely in a professional situation here. For a recreational diver to unnecessarily put thier safety at risk is SIMPLY STUPID.
As with the other posts, I do think it is best to get proper training and any commentsI give are simply my expereince and not to be taken as advice therefore don't blame me if you get injured.
1) The latex seals should be tight enough to stop the water from entering but not too tight for comfort. If the seals are stiff (new) or haven't been used for a while, I find it useful to stretch them over a tank or a bucket for several hours. It loosened mine up.
2) Generally people will tell you not to fold a latex neck seal and really there is no need to but if the seal is too tight or if you have a pronounced adam's apply I found it better to fold over the seal to the lower portion of the neck. This helped to maintain a seal and was far more comfortable and less constricting that laying the seal flat. It is very important not to have any folds or kinks in the seal though. It must be completely flat around the circumfrance of your neck.
3) Yes, always ensure that the shiny smooth side of a neo seal is against the skin. If the smooth side is not, you will never maintain a seal. Same as the neck seal, if your wrist seals are too tight I have found it helpful to stretch them over a fairly thick beer bottle to get them more comfortable. Of course if they fit well this is unnecessary and may actually stretch the seals especially in the short term. My experience.
4) If you have a shoulder dump, simply raising your arm will not necessarily purge the suit adaquately. First you need to check the adjustment. Is it set to dump automatically or do you need to push it to activate the dump valve. You will need to research your particular valve. Additionally, I find it hard to dump with a shoulder valve but if I bend my elbow (kind of like a chicken wing) it helps and if necessary, I do simulated arm curls to force (pump) the air out. Of course you valve will have to be open for this to work. Important - if your shoulder dump does not work and you don't want to flood your suit (flooding in an emergency is the best option to purge your suit quickly but it is really cold) you will need to pull the valve away from the suit a little or as necessary especially if it has been plugged by your undergarments. Note - make sure you have good quality undergarments that will not cause threads or lint to enter the valves. This could result in a valve failure and a terrible dive. Trust me on this!
5) After many years of trying to get feet up, I finally accomplished the task. I wanted to do this just so I could practice the skill but for some reason it was the one thing I couldn't do. to recover I found that a simple summer sult is not the only way. You will have to practice to recover from a feet up situation. For me I kick myself right. I have never taken a drysuit course so I may have missed out on this skill.
6) In addition to ensuring your weighting and trim are addressed, it is critical that you vent some air before beginning your assent. If you don't you will be bursting through the surface like a rocket. Dump enough air to become a little heavy and then kick yourself up through the assent and DON'T FORGET YOU MUST DUMP BOTH YOUR SUIT AND WING. I put this in all caps because i made a really critical mistake and hope you will not. Diving dry is really not a big deal but if you forget any of the little details they could result in a really major problem. This is why most recommend a dry course.
7) If your boots are reasonably well fit you won't blow off a fin but should you they can be a serious pain to get back on. Also a personal experience which unfortunately happened around 100 feet down. If you are really worried about blowing a fin or going feet up ankle wieghts may be in order. The worst that will happen is that you will become a human rotor tiller but at least you won't do a feet first assent. When I first started dry I found the ankle wieghts very helpful. Now I don't use them but i would if I thaught that feet up was going to be a problem.
8) I have never used a full face mask so i can't comment but if i do I will probably not take the course unless I happened to hear about one. I think they are pretty rare and many of those who actually teach the specialties don't know much to begin with. Just my unfortunate experience.
9) Same as before, squat and hold the neck seal open but make sure it is well vented before jumping in to avoid a sudden flood.
10)If use both a front and rear zip and the rear zip is a little stiff and can limit your ability to reach back. Get confortable with it and ensure you can still reach your tank valves.
11) Prior to assent you must vent your air. Drysuit dumps don't vent all that fast so you can become boyant before you have had time to vent fully. If this was my first time I would completely squeeze the suit before I even thought about going up and use my wing for any boyancy needs on the way up. Remember that even if your suit is fully squeezed at depth the air will expand and you will need to dump on the way up as well. I found it best to leave the dump valve open on the assent and continuousely squeeze the suit. it's uncomfortable but safer to keep the suit empty on the assent until you have practiced and mastered the drysuit skills.
12) I would add only enough air so that you can stay warm and avoid uncomfortable squeeze. The less air you have in your suit the less that could expand and cuase a boyant assent. When i first practiced in a drysuit I learned that less was best when it came to air in my suit. It also reduces the ammount of lead you will need. Just make sure there is enough so that you don't get hickies all over the place. This was particularily important when I expereinced an uncomfortable squeeze in sensitive areas.
13) Weightin is the same as in a wet suit. YOU WILL NEED TO FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF. It varies quite a bit on your personal body, undergarments, duit construction and fit and whatever other equipment you will be using.
As mentioned before this is not in any way to be considered instructional. I am not an instructor and have never been trained in drysuit diving. I have limited experience and therefore don't know anything.
If you choose to listen to any of my ramblings that is your choice and 100% your responsibility.
A final note - many people here on this board seem to be crazy about taking courses. My experience is that courses are nothing more than a tax in many cases. Take the deep diver PADI course for example. I did a few dives past 60 or 70 feet. My instructor showed me that colors dissappear at depth and the tennis ball gets smaller. Don't we all know this before we finish elementary school? I have talked to others who have had the same experience with drysuit courses. Why jump on a guy who is smart enough to realize when something is really a waste of money.
I do agree that courses can be very useful and if put together properly can be a very wise choice but with the huge number of incompetant under-expereinced so called "instructors" out there that we would actually be better off to practice the skills with a mentor or at least do our own research and practice the skills.
I think this would turn out better divers than uninformed card holders that are dillusional enough to beleive that a little peice of plastic actually suggests they are qualified and skilled in a particular area?
3) Wrist seals -- check with your DS manufacturer.
I have a crushed neoprene DS, and even though the outside of the wrist seals are pretty shiny, it is one where you aren't supposed to fold over. If it's DS, you're wearing undergarments -- make sure you don't have the arms of them go all the way out to the end of the DS neoprene wrist seals, else they'll provide a water intrusion path; the neo seals need to get a seal against your actual wrist.
A good pair of wetsuit gloves, with tapered cuff, can be handy -- the tapered glove cuff goes over the tapered wrist cuff, doubles up the insulation/seal quite nicely.
This is nothing about your DS, only mine -- construction/use varies from suit to suit.
A course is a really good thing -- not rocket science, but very beneficial to have someone experienced to explicitly point out the bugaboos, work them with you. An instructor is explicitly trained to help people through the skills in life support gear.
Weighting can be "interesting". I'm a total newbie, but had a huge weight increase when I first switched to drysuit, only starting to get that back down after a half dozen dives, but it's still much more than a wetsuit.
Doing mask remove/replace in very cold water with a hood can be another "interesting" experience. That's one area where being with an instructor, or a mentor who does a lot of diving, can be important -- "brain freeze" happens when that cold water smacks your face.
In other words, it IS different from wetsuit diving, and there are some basic safety things that just really ought to be done under supervision to check out your skills. There are some specialties that might be thought of as more of a joke (purely for $), I don't believe DS is one of them.
See http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=97023 for one recent example of things that can happen.
I have a crushed neoprene DS, and even though the outside of the wrist seals are pretty shiny, it is one where you aren't supposed to fold over. If it's DS, you're wearing undergarments -- make sure you don't have the arms of them go all the way out to the end of the DS neoprene wrist seals, else they'll provide a water intrusion path; the neo seals need to get a seal against your actual wrist.
A good pair of wetsuit gloves, with tapered cuff, can be handy -- the tapered glove cuff goes over the tapered wrist cuff, doubles up the insulation/seal quite nicely.
This is nothing about your DS, only mine -- construction/use varies from suit to suit.
A course is a really good thing -- not rocket science, but very beneficial to have someone experienced to explicitly point out the bugaboos, work them with you. An instructor is explicitly trained to help people through the skills in life support gear.
Weighting can be "interesting". I'm a total newbie, but had a huge weight increase when I first switched to drysuit, only starting to get that back down after a half dozen dives, but it's still much more than a wetsuit.
Doing mask remove/replace in very cold water with a hood can be another "interesting" experience. That's one area where being with an instructor, or a mentor who does a lot of diving, can be important -- "brain freeze" happens when that cold water smacks your face.
In other words, it IS different from wetsuit diving, and there are some basic safety things that just really ought to be done under supervision to check out your skills. There are some specialties that might be thought of as more of a joke (purely for $), I don't believe DS is one of them.
See http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=97023 for one recent example of things that can happen.
trevinkorea:
So would you buddy up with the nitrox diver who taught themselves, or the one that got the little piece of plastic?
You scuba instructors are all alike. I teach real school so I'll say taking a class does not amount to diddly-squat.ScubaFreak:
A motivated self-taught person would far outperform a non-motivated schooled person all day long and any day of the week.
Can't tell you how many posts I've read where someone just finished up nitrox class but had to post to find out if they had to O2 clean their tank to get a banked mix from their LDS, or asking how to use an analyzer. Just look at the shear volume of posts on this site asking very basic questions. That alone should raise a flag on the validity of the holy plastic card.
Ill dive with the self-taught nitrox diver .
Jason
With all due respect, you don't know anything about me, and vice versa, so i'd appreciate if you could see beyond the pool of the lazy brainwashed instructor that we all know exists, and maybe consider that there are some good instructors out there.JasonB:
I'm not talking about a non-motivated schooled person, I'm confident that whatever teaching I do, regardless of the course, the students will be motivated by the course content, and if they're not pulling their weight and just waiting to be certified, they simply don't continue on my course.Jason B:
.JasonB:
Totally agree, hell I had a rescue student come up to me and ask if I wanted to borrow some ear plugs.
never said it was holy, the great C-card debate will rage well after the time both of us have retired!JasonB:
Thats your choice, but how about in the technical world, would you rather do a multi-gas mix deco-dive with someone with no deco, mixed gas training? Oh but it doesn't matter, they're motivated about it, so I guess nothing can go wrong!JasonB:
pgdive
Contributor
Just an fyi, this guy had the same post on the decostop and it was closed by the admin. in about 2 minutes.
Paul
Paul
They are motivated about what, going diving? Totally missed my point didn't you.ScubaFreak:
I think a re-read of my previous post is in order as I never said I'd dive with them if they had no training. No training what so ever and self learning (or informal training) are not the same thing.
Jason
Jason B:
No I didn't miss your point at all.
But let me clarify, I'm an instructor, very motivated, love diving, but think the thought of teaching myself something that can be potentially very dangerous, is ridiculous. But from what I understand, even though I have no experience with technical diving, you'd be willing to dive with me on one of your fancy tech dives, all because I was motivated? I didn't realise that tech were into "trust me" dives.
In relation to the Original post, I had an instructor come to me to take a drysuit class, and when he was finished, he thanked me, because of the amount of things that he hadn't even thought about relating to drysuit diving, and he had just as many dives under his belt and the OP did.
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