Have you been denied a dive because of the lack of paper dive log (w/ signature)?

[markmud]

And this is why I don't understand why previous/existing certs aren't listed on the new card when you get a new cert done. You don't get a "car driver's license" and then get your motorcycle license and have to carry two cards, and then get your CDL and get a third one to carry around... you get a new license that lists off what you're certified for because even the DMV can figure out that issuing a separate license for everything you can "drive" would be ridiculous.

Hi jlcnuke,

That would be an easy fix for half the problem!

Thanks,
M

 

[Dave Bevan]

I don't even have an electronic log these days. Can't be arsed...

 

[dmaziuk]

You like the system and I don't. That's fine as your opinion is as valid as mine.

Pro dive ops should be able to respect c-cards that divers hold; but the system is broken. People like me are sometimes treated like cattle because of a flawed system.

Ever considered that maybe you're just lucky that way?

It has been my experience that whenever someone changes the system to "improve" my "user experience", 3 things happen:
1. Some of the old systems' functionality gets dropped. We only realize we needed it after we start missing it.
2. Operators trained to use old system are not proficient with the new one, and remain so for quite some time. While the ones who sucked at the old one still suck.
3. We get to pay triple: for fixing #1, #2, and for all the mess that happens in-between.

I didn't say I like the system, you'll have to not only convince me it's really broken, but also that you fix is achievable, economical, and has a high chance of being completed on schedule, withing budget, and actually working, before I jump on the "let's fix the system" bandwagon.

 

[markmud]

Ever considered that maybe you're just lucky that way?

It has been my experience that whenever someone changes the system to "improve" my "user experience", 3 things happen:
1. Some of the old systems' functionality gets dropped. We only realize we needed it after we start missing it.
2. Operators trained to use old system are not proficient with the new one, and remain so for quite some time. While the ones who sucked at the old one still suck.
3. We get to pay triple: for fixing #1, #2, and for all the mess that happens in-between.

I didn't say I like the system, you'll have to not only convince me it's really broken, but also that you fix is achievable, economical, and has a high chance of being completed on schedule, withing budget, and actually working, before I jump on the "let's fix the system" bandwagon.

Hi dmaziak,

Sorry, let me rephrase: You fear change so you would rather let a flawed system remain. Your opinion is as valid as mine and I respect your opinion. I am still for changing the system regardless of the unintended consequences that may occur.

thanks,
markm

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

By "the system" of course.

Back in the USSR there was a joke about a plumber looking at a clogged drain, shaking his head and saying "the system needs to be changed". "What, like, the sink, the drain pipe?" "No, don't you get it? -- The system needs to be changed."

So I've hard time taking "the system needs to be changed" seriously: you run into a muppet clerk, escalate to next level in the food chain or walk across the street to another shop. Why is it the system's fault?

You use a lot of words to describe a simple concept ... "you can't fix stupid" ...

That said, the diving industry has been crafted to develop a majority of stupid divers, and a nearly equal number of stupid dive professionals. "Fixing" it would involve increasing the time, effort, and finances required to become a diver and would reduce the number of people who would even want to become a dive professional (although it would generally increase the quality of those who did) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

And this is why I don't understand why previous/existing certs aren't listed on the new card when you get a new cert done. You don't get a "car driver's license" and then get your motorcycle license and have to carry two cards, and then get your CDL and get a third one to carry around... you get a new license that lists off what you're certified for because even the DMV can figure out that issuing a separate license for everything you can "drive" would be ridiculous.

If they listed all the previous/existing certs on a single card, mine would definitely not fit in my wallet, since I have a drawer full of c-cards. Not to mention the logistics of carrying it across multiple agencies. I've c-cards from seven different agencies ... curiously, none of them are PADI. That's not because I don't like PADI, particularly, but rather because they either didn't offer the classes I wanted to take (at the time) or because there wasn't a local PADI instructor I wanted to take them from. Fortunately there are always other options ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Ever considered that maybe you're just lucky that way?

It has been my experience that whenever someone changes the system to "improve" my "user experience", 3 things happen:
1. Some of the old systems' functionality gets dropped. We only realize we needed it after we start missing it.
2. Operators trained to use old system are not proficient with the new one, and remain so for quite some time. While the ones who sucked at the old one still suck.
3. We get to pay triple: for fixing #1, #2, and for all the mess that happens in-between.

I didn't say I like the system, you'll have to not only convince me it's really broken, but also that you fix is achievable, economical, and has a high chance of being completed on schedule, withing budget, and actually working, before I jump on the "let's fix the system" bandwagon.

The simplest fix would be to raise the bar for becoming a dive professional. Nothing else needs to change. And while that might increase costs overall for dive ops, it would have no impact on #1 & 2, and would significantly improve the diver experience overall.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[kelemvor]

If they listed all the previous/existing certs on a single card, mine would definitely not fit in my wallet, since I have a drawer full of c-cards. Not to mention the logistics of carrying it across multiple agencies. I've c-cards from seven different agencies ... curiously, none of them are PADI. That's not because I don't like PADI, particularly, but rather because they either didn't offer the classes I wanted to take (at the time) or because there wasn't a local PADI instructor I wanted to take them from. Fortunately there are always other options ...

Did you take all those OW courses or were they just crossovers?

 

[stuartv]

This was going to be my point. How in the world are they going to verify the signature? Do certified instructors log their license numbers and signatures in a database? What keeps someone from tearing out a piece of log book paper, scrawling a name on it and swimming? I can't figure out what they protected themselves from.

If I sign someone's log book, I would sign and put SDI and my pro cert #. That would be something any dive operator could look up to at least verify that the name matches the pro #. It's certainly not foolproof as it would not be that hard for a person who is faking a logbook to look up a real pro, find out their pro #, and use that in their logbook. But, are people really faking logbook pages? Do the ones that do actually go to that much trouble to make sure it will "check out"?

Not being an instructor I am entirely unqualified to make this comment so here it is: I expect an $AGENCY instructor should be able to obtain contact information for another $AGENCY instructor, in order to contact them and verify. They do have $AGENCY-issued IDs that are (should be) written down next to the signature.

Also referrals wouldn't exist (where you do the classroom & pool part of course locally then do OW dives on your tropical vacation) if the stamped and signed paper was not sufficient.

A referral for OW dives has a process that is more than just having the student show up at their referral destination and show a piece of paper with a signature on it. "The system" is a little smarter than that. So, no, the stamped and signed paper is not complete and sufficient for OW referral dives. The fact that the system does have an allowance built into it for handling referrals for OW is also what gives some protection to the destination instructor when they take the student directly to OW dives, skipping confined water. There is no such similar system (at least, not with SDI) to support doing some AAD (SDI equivalent to PADI AOW) dives with one instructor and then traveling and doing the rest with a different instructor. Thus why you are unlikely see one instructor calling another instructor to confirm that a student already completed part of a "class". "The system" only supports doing that kind of thing for OW. And, from what I have seen, I doubt you would find any instructor that would issue an AAD (or AOW) cert based on the student completing any of their dives with an instructor from a different dive operations - whether the other instructor "signed off" (on paper or over the phone) or not. At least, barring exceptions as have been described in this thread like having an LACD card and a few thousand dives and finding an instructor who issues an AOW card just to be nice.

At least, that is my current understanding. I have not yet actually done a referral to send someone off to finish OW somewhere else, nor received a referral student from somewhere else.

The really tricky thing is really only if a student does something like completes classroom and confined water with Agency1 and then wants to do a referral and do their OW dives somewhere else, with Agency2. I was on a boat a couple of years ago with a student that was doing that. They did class and CW with an SDI instructor. The boat I was on was run by a PADI shop. They basically made the student re-do classroom and "confined water". I had only been diving a few months myself at that point. But, it seems to me that they violated a whole bunch of standards, but in the end the student completed their certification. Ignoring the standards violations, the destination shop did not handle the referral simply by accepting a stamped and signed piece of paper.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Did you take all those OW courses or were they just crossovers?

Not sure what you're asking here ... I took OW once (although I taught it many times). Most of my classes were either related to my years as a scuba instructor or were tech/cave related.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)