Have you been denied a dive because of the lack of paper dive log (w/ signature)?

[stuartv]

The simplest fix would be to raise the bar for becoming a dive professional. Nothing else needs to change. And while that might increase costs overall for dive ops, it would have no impact on #1 & 2, and would significantly improve the diver experience overall.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It seems to me that the person signing you in for your dives and checking C cards is not always a dive pro at all. They're often just a shop/boat operator minimum wage employee. So, I'm not sure how raising the bar to become a dive pro would really help.

If a dive operator is filling their boats and they are occasionally excluding an over-qualified diver, I'm not sure the dive operator would even agree that there is a problem to be solved.

If a dive operator is actually denying seats to people for lack of a paper dive log with a signature, that seems to me to be a problem that a free market will solve in due time without any help.

Beyond that, if you're going to do dives for which you are highly over-qualified, it seems like it has already been said: Recognize whom you may be dealing with (i.e. a minimum wage employee whose job is to check for a Nitrox card) and don't expect them to be so well-educated that they recognize that a Trimix card is really a Nitrox Plus Plus card. Save yourself the headache and just take an extra card or two (e.g. an AOW card and a Nitrox card). Or stick to doing truly advance dives where the dive operator WILL recognize the higher level cards as they are specifically looking for those.

 

[jlcnuke]

If they listed all the previous/existing certs on a single card, mine would definitely not fit in my wallet, since I have a drawer full of c-cards. Not to mention the logistics of carrying it across multiple agencies. I've c-cards from seven different agencies ... curiously, none of them are PADI. That's not because I don't like PADI, particularly, but rather because they either didn't offer the classes I wanted to take (at the time) or because there wasn't a local PADI instructor I wanted to take them from. Fortunately there are always other options ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I wasn't suggesting that one card cover multiple agencies, but I'm pretty sure I could fit every recreational certification PADI offers (for example) on one card without too much difficulty. That would be preferable, imo, to taking one card to show the shop that I can use nitrox, and a different one to show the dive boat captain that I've got my AOW cert done and another showing I've done a deep dive cert so I can do that first deep dive that's planned and another to show them that I've got my self-reliant diver cert so they'll let me go take pictures on my own during the dives etc (just making things up here, but I could foresee some anal Captain wanting to see all of those and maybe not even trusting the pictures on my phone and want the actual cards).

I sure as heck don't expect every dive shop/boat worker to have memorized every pre-requisite for every certification offered by every certifying agency and what each of those certifications means a diver is certified to do. There are some that are "obvious" I'd say (if you have enriched air cert listed and ask for enriched air, I'm guessing they could figure that out for instance), but many are less obvious to those who aren't "into" that stuff (I wouldn't expect most recreational divers to know what "Tec 40" means for instance).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It seems to me that the person signing you in for your dives and checking C cards is not always a dive pro at all. They're often just a shop/boat operator minimum wage employee. So, I'm not sure how raising the bar to become a dive pro would really help.

If a dive operator is filling their boats and they are occasionally excluding an over-qualified diver, I'm not sure the dive operator would even agree that there is a problem to be solved.

If a dive operator is actually denying seats to people for lack of a paper dive log with a signature, that seems to me to be a problem that a free market will solve in due time without any help.

Beyond that, if you're going to do dives for which you are highly over-qualified, it seems like it has already been said: Recognize whom you may be dealing with (i.e. a minimum wage employee whose job is to check for a Nitrox card) and don't expect them to be so well-educated that they recognize that a Trimix card is really a Nitrox Plus Plus card. Save yourself the headache and just take an extra card or two (e.g. an AOW card and a Nitrox card). Or stick to doing truly advance dives where the dive operator WILL recognize the higher level cards as they are specifically looking for those.

Having a bunch of tech certifications doesn't eliminate the enjoyment I get out of doing simple dives ... in fact the majority of my dives are just easy bimbles in my local mudhole ... dives I've done hundreds of times because it's convenient (I live 5 minutes from a dive site, and can go anytime, year round). This time of year some of my dives at that site won't take me below 20 feet ... there's a tiny fish (the one in my avatar, in fact) that lives in the eel grass throughout the winter that's a photographer's delight. And to relate that to more tropical locales, it would be like taking a shallow dive in places like Fiji and the Philippines looking for sea horses. That might be boring to some tech-qualified divers ... but not this one.

The person who refused my c-card because it wasn't PADI was a shop owner and scuba instructor. I would expect him to understand that other agencies also issue valie c-cards. The person who refused my trimix card because it wasn't nitrox was a divemaster who worked for the shop. Yes, he probably was a minimum wage worker (most dive pros in tourist places like Bonaire are) ... but that doesn't negate the fact that by the time you have completed the DM course you should have a fundamental understanding of common breathing gasses. The shop in question sells trips to the clipper ship, which means they pump trimix. I would expect an employee who fills tanks to know what it is. If he doesn't, that's indicative that he's improperly trained for his job.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Sam Miller III]

Interesting thread ...
A little history - re dive logs

The very first dive log was designed by Dick Bonin whom some recall as the founder of SCUBA Pro. In 1955 Dick had completed his service obligation as a Ltjg under Dough Fane and was working at a large now defunct dive shop in his home of Chicago called Dive Master.
Dick designed a dive log based on the one he maintain in the USN UDT which was marketed for a short time by Divemaster but with little success.

1967 LA Co UW Instructors Association develops the first true three months long Advanced Diver Program required maintaining a 50 cent dive log which was developed by Tom Ebro the LA Co Sr Aquatic Specialist.
From that time on LA Co required a log for ADP & UICC.

NAUI followed soon after as I recall raising the price to $1.00,

PADI invaded SoCal in 1969 with LA Co UW instructor Nic Icorn at the helm. PADI soon had a Log based (copied ) from LA Co and charged the members a ridiculous price for it.

Now from its beginning in 1976 it has become almost mandatory to maintain a log.

I maintained a log for about 12 years -- fun to read and reminisce - some crazy dives 240, many at 200, but the most enjoyable reading is the ones I insisted that my children maintain-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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The following is a post from another thread about C cards and son Sam IV ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A family story told and retold when my diving family gathers

Some years ago my son needed a relaxing vacation and chose Hawaii. His plan was to relax around the pool with the family and do nothing except one day he wanted to devote to diving. I suggested based on what I had read on this board to take all his certifications and honors...just in case some fuzzy faced DM demanded some special certification or "training."

He arrived at the boat was met by a wet behind his ears DM who was checking certifications. Sam IV showed him a NAUI (Life) Instructor certification which confused the DM - didn't understand the "Life certification" so he next displayed his rather low number PADI Instructor card, which he was informed was long out of date. Next comes the SSI Pro 5000 Which totally confused the DM, so he asked the Captain about a Pro 5000, The Captain jumps up, runs over introduced himself and says cone on up to the wheel house and lets chat --which the did all the way to the dive site.

Sam IV asked the captain if it was agreeable and acceptable just grab a tank. jump over the side and just relax underwater-- No problem was the reply.

On the return there was a vacation type diver who suddenly was experiencing all sorts of imagined dive maladies. The fuzzy faced DM "training " immediately kicked in- he began asking the most bizarre questions , so Sam IV came out of the wheel house and causally took over the questioning of dive history and began a preliminary examination, much to the consternation of the DM, who asked "I suppose you are also a diving doctor?" Sam IV casually replied "Matter of fact I am." To which the DM replied with much sarcasm "Well were did you GET your training ? As if you sent in 3 box tops and received post doctorate specialties. Sam replied "4 years ER residency and 2 years Scripps Hyperbaric fellowship.

The diving victim had swallowed copious amounts of Air ( IE and air hog) and had a stomach pain which had dissipated by the time the boat docked.

Post Scrip
The captain had never and a passenger who was as knowledgeable and experienced as Sam IV and invited him to jump on board any time he was in the islands.
He has 4 or more times and the Captain and Sam IV have become life time friends

And so it wuzzz ... the dazz of our dives

SDM

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I wasn't suggesting that one card cover multiple agencies, but I'm pretty sure I could fit every recreational certification PADI offers (for example) on one card without too much difficulty. That would be preferable, imo, to taking one card to show the shop that I can use nitrox, and a different one to show the dive boat captain that I've got my AOW cert done and another showing I've done a deep dive cert so I can do that first deep dive that's planned and another to show them that I've got my self-reliant diver cert so they'll let me go take pictures on my own during the dives etc (just making things up here, but I could foresee some anal Captain wanting to see all of those and maybe not even trusting the pictures on my phone and want the actual cards).

That would work for the five basic levels of non-pro recreational diver (OW, Adventure, AOW, Rescue, and Master Diver), however if you add in specialties it could be dozens. And then there's a tech program that offers another half-dozen backmount classes, plus more for CCR, sidemount and gas blending.

And that's just PADI ...

I sure as heck don't expect every dive shop/boat worker to have memorized every pre-requisite for every certification offered by every certifying agency and what each of those certifications means a diver is certified to do.

They don't have to memorize them ... although it's not really all that hard. But there are other ways a business can accommodate, ranging from checklists to cheat sheets to the internet, depending on where you're diving and what resources are available. Most dive ops use these resources ... particularly in the more common tourist spots. That fellow in Maui, for example, has as much access to this information via the internet as you and I do. He's just too lazy to use it.

There are some that are "obvious" I'd say (if you have enriched air cert listed and ask for enriched air, I'm guessing they could figure that out for instance), but many are less obvious to those who aren't "into" that stuff (I wouldn't expect most recreational divers to know what "Tec 40" means for instance).

Me neither ... but I would expect a dive professional to know ... particularly someone who's certified to that level through PADI. That some don't would tend to support my thesis that the bar to achieve dive pro status is too low.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[scubadada]

I have a PADI Rescue card with nitrox on it also from 2005. It's the only card I carry. Has never been turned down for a rec dive +/- nitrox. I don't think PADI has offered this combo card choice for quite a while.