Have training standards "slipped"?

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I would point out that many people today have bad experiences during the OW cert dives or the dives immediately afterwards.
The mentality of getting someone certified in the shortest possible time and then selling them thousands of dollars of gear has completely backfired. These new divers have the skills or experience to have enjoyable dives, so within a short period they give up diving because floundering around in the water isn't much fun.


Perhaps it would be better to invest for long-term growth rather than short term...
 
Kingpatzer:
Probably not. I was a competative swimmer and I've had plenty of training on breathing compressed air at various pressures (just not underwater) and I'm the kind of person who tryies to learn everything he can when taking on a new task . . . so prior to the first class I had not only finished all of the course material, but had read several other books repeatedly.

Hold that thought
I still can't stop sculling with my hands and maintain my attitude though . . . and that is something that just hasn't been covered in OW or AOW . . .

This is what I'm talking about. You weren't taught the theory/mechanics and techniques needed to square this away and it isn't in the rescue, DM or instructor courses either. You may learn it on your own or someone may step in and teach you but you aren't going to find it in the required material of many of the mainstream recreational diving agencies...probably none of them.

Had you been given the theory in the classroom and excersizes to pratice the techniques in the pool, you would have had plenty to do, wouldn't have been board and it would have paid HUGE dividends from your very first OW dive on.

When I teach (taught) I explained the theory, students saw vidoes of divers who could and of those who couldn't so they would know the difference (no, it's not in any PADI video, LOL), they practiced body position and finning technique on land and it was all put into practice from the moment we got in the water. From the very beginning no instructor or DM EVER used the bottom so students always had the example right in front of them. Diving is about 98% just controlling your position and movement in the water column and I don't see any sense in a class where this is barely touched on. I don't see any sense in a course design that doesn't combine basic diving skills/tasks with diving (performing those tasks midwater while diving) before the end of the course.

Just this morning, I went to the PADI standards to look something up prior to posting in this thread. In regards to the "hover" in OW dive 4 (for which there is no longer any minimum required time), I noticed that they recommend that "the hover" be done near a line with the instructor prepared to grab the student should they lose control! Now this is dive 4! Haven't they already done tours on THREE OW dives? This is their last training dive, they are almost certified and we should need a line handy to control them when we let them off the bottom? If I had a student and I thought I needed a line and to be that close just because they were off the bottom, we would not be leaving the pool yet and there just isn't any way we could have gotten to dive 4. By dive 4 (or whatever the last dive of the course is), the student is planning the dive and leading me.
 
Ironically enough, the idea of not using one's hands is beat into our students from day one of the semester of OW. I'd say 75% of the students don't their hands at all within a few days and close to 95% by the end of the course (there will always be boneheads). The ones who do use their hands keep them close their body and might have the occasional hand swipe.
And yet, many people (including instructors) can't "hover" without waving their arms around as if they're having an epileptic seizure.
Explains why they have to stand on the bottom, hm? Some can't even do that successfully without falling over. :shakehead
 
jeckyll:
I challenge all of the contributers in this thread to channel the energy wasted on these internet discussions and go make the difference in one, just ONE newer divers progression over the next 4 weeks.

Go be a mentor to someone and make a change in their diving career & safe approach to the sport.

That is all :)

Some of us do both.

However, these threads are not a waste of time or energy. Search through the board and see how many divers learned much of the material that's missing from the agency courses right here. Long ago I lost count of the instructors who after engaging in these debates and attempting to defend their agency of choice, decided to try a different approach to training. Without naming names (even if I could remember them all) I can tell you that quite a few of the divers and instructors who are now on one side of the debate, started out on the other...they're converts.

How many divers do you think are effected by every instructor who picks up a few ideas here? Don't make the mistake of thinking that this board hasn't made a difference.
 
SparticleBrane:
Ironically enough, the idea of not using one's hands is beat into our students from day one of the semester of OW. I'd say 75% of the students don't their hands at all within a few days and close to 95% by the end of the course (there will always be boneheads). The ones who do use their hands keep them close their body and might have the occasional hand swipe.
And yet, many people (including instructors) can't "hover" without waving their arms around as if they're having an epileptic seizure.
Explains why they have to stand on the bottom, hm? Some can't even do that successfully without falling over. :shakehead

Lots of people have more trouble learning to kneel or stand on the bottom than they do learning to hover.
 
Hemlon:
Mike,

Show me the data where an increase in death or injury is correlated to the length of the diver's OW class.

(All I hear are crickets chirping.)
Interesting question, indeed, and one that might get to the heart of the matter.

Unfortunately, I don't think we have that data, and it might be that this whole training standards issue is a bit of a red herring, or we're looking at the wrong parts of the training!

I've (briefly) reviewed most of the available DAN annual reports, and they analyze the (limited) data six ways from Sunday from a medical standpoint, EXCEPT there is no examination of training course length, or agency. Probably because this information is just not available in most cases, or wasn't considered to be relevant to the treatment of diving illnesses.

Of note, however is that diving fatalities ARE rising slighty, although it DOES appear that this more closely coorrelates with the aging (and fattening!) of the diving population. From http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/report/2006DANDivingReport.pdf
For example, the 2004 edition of DAN Diving Report indicated that the mean age of diving fatalities increased from 39 to 48 years from 1989 to 2002 while the mean age of diving injuries increased from 33 to 39 years from 1987 to 2002.
Looking at this same report, you'll find that most fatalities are either in the first year of diving (28% of deaths), OR in divers with more than 10 years since certification (25%) (same report, p. 47)

If you assume that most of the year 1 fatalities are training or right after, then that would argue that there is some issue with (current) training. But this might have always been the case, even in "macho diver" days. The only way to measure whether changing training stardards are responsible for this would be to measure the number of "year 1" accidents year-over-year for the past 30 years. Unfortunately, I suspect this data isn't available prior to 1998.

Now, about those other divers (10 yrs or more). It looks like a lot of those are due to physical illness (heart disease) and BMI "issues", which are of course, related. Only 25% of fatalities were in people who were not considered overweight or obese (BMI < 25%). People who are considered obese or morbidly obese were about 50% of th fatalities, and merely overweight (like me) clocked in at about 25%.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that the problem (if any) hasn't been a change in training standards and its not because we didn't all do the Mike Hunt/UDT/macho diver 200 yard swim, 2000 pushups, and all that other stuff in training.

It's that we've all (as a general population) just gotten dangerously out of shape, and diving isn't one of those weekend warrior sports where the only consequence is some sore muscles come Monday morning.

Enough analysis, I'm taking my soggy butt to the gym this afternoon. If nothing else, this has convinced me to lose that 20 pounds I've been kidding about for the past 5 years. SoCal diving is NOT the Kona diving I did last week, and that's just the way it is and I need to be in beter shape unless I want to be a statistic.

As far as I can tell, it's almost completely irrelevant if your course was PADI or NAUI or SSI or TDI or GUE, or if the course was 2 days or 2 weeks. Once you get past the first year, it's much more about whether or not you're in reasonable shape to go diving, as long as you don't dive WELL beyond your training.

So, don't be chubby, and don't go cave or wreck diving unless you're trained for it, and you'll be fine?
 
MikeFerrara:
How many divers do you think are effected by every instructor who picks up a few ideas here? Don't make the mistake of thinking that this board hasn't made a difference.

Mike: Very well said. This board makes, IMO, a very big difference to divers new and old. Thank you for posting.
 
TheRedHead:
Your training sounds a bit macho. I had to tow my instructor who was about 6'5" and a biscuit short of 300 pounds. No one buddy breathes to the surface, etc. These exercises are designed to produce stress. Diving is really a mental activity which requires good planning and and the ability to think clearly under stress. Yes, rescue skills are important, but self-rescue skills are more important.


Well, being as it was my first ever experience with SCUBA I didn't really find it macho at all. And, it was taught by a fellow XX chromosome holder. I was kind of glad to have learned these skills. Maybe they're redundant, but I feel that I'm a pretty confident diver since taking the course. I guess each instructor has their personal program/agenda within the agencies. I plan to continue to learn more, and become the best diver I can. Anything less, for me, just isn't acceptable.
 
SparticleBrane:
I would point out that many people today have bad experiences during the OW cert dives or the dives immediately afterwards.
The mentality of getting someone certified in the shortest possible time and then selling them thousands of dollars of gear has completely backfired.

Well I guess my students (and the students of the few instructors that I know personally) are outside your bell curve. None of them have had a bad experience during OW cert dives and those that did certify have not had a bad experience post cert that I am aware of. But I am a rookie instructor so the data set is small, but growing all the time.

NetDoc:
Nah, we just don't buy into your gloom and doom outlook on dive training. We are tired of the entire industry being castigated because they don't train the way YOU and a few others want them to. Can there be improvements? Sure, and NAUI allows me to incorporate whatever I feel is important into my class. Unlike you, I have not given up teaching. My students benefit from a unique approach to dive training, and I am proud of that. Call that EGO if you want. But I am not going to condemn YOU because you don't train students the way that I do: I expect it.

Ditto and excellent post Pete - and I am PADI and I don't see anything in the standards that prevents me from turning out decent new divers. It is "my" definition of what a decent new diver is as well:D

The best divers turned out by the best instructors will loose it if they don't dive often and if they don't continue to practice. (btw I consider myself an average instructor)

Oh yea and SparticleBrane you won't find any of my divers conducting the philharmonic u/w. And most of them didn't need a full semester to get there arms around that concept. (yes pun intended)

I haven't been able to locate the section in the standards that says I have to turn out a diver in 4 days or less (its nice to be an independent).

Take an ow course from me and you get a free discover snorkeling class before we get to the scuba class (which isn't free). What a concept:crafty:

Cheers

Steve

Edit - I'm part of the "new" crowd of instructors - the ones who are supposedly trained by agencies with declining standards. It would be great to hear from other instructors who are not part of the "old gang". After all we are the ones that are supposedly creating this new world of bad divers:)
 
Hemlon:
Impressive, Thal. Too bad there just isn't data to support it.
There's plenty of data, start with the fact that we're not exempt from OSHA Injury and Illness Reporting and Record Keeping requirements. Call OSHA.

I'll give you a few background pieces and then I'm done. I'm frankly tired of having data that I offer second guessed, that may not be an insult in your world, but it is in mine. I submit that if you don't believe the data, refute it yourself, I'm done wasting my time. But we'll operate under standard science rules, until refuted: data stands!

In PROCEEDINGS OF ADVANCED SCIENTIFIC DIVING WORKSHOP:

Mike Lang: "In the science community&#8217;s attempt to implement a new 300-foot seawater mixed gas program, one major incident or fatality will shelve the effort for the next 50 years."

In, Investigating Recreational & Commercial Diving Accidents, Steve Barsky and Tom Neuman M.D. wrote: "Scientific divers track the number of accidents among their ranks rather care*fully and they have an extremely good safety record. Their organization, the AAUS (American Academy of Under*water Sciences) maintains high training standards and has requirements for rou*tine diving physicals and recertification of their members."

In ARPP: Scientific Diving to National Standards, Dr. Robert Millott of the University of Florida wrote, "The ARPP has an excellent accident free history of scientific diving activities. With the large number of divers (both volunteers and faculty/staff/students) and dives over the past 15 years, its progressive support and adherence to national standards for dive safety in scientific diving can be seen as a major contributing factor to this outstanding safety record.

The ARPP has supported and complied with the national safety standards as promoted by the AAUS. It has as its strong support dive group a larger number of volunteers than academicians. Divers coming from all over the US and beyond have proven capable and conscientious in assisting with the research.

The program has demonstrated an attention to details, planning and training that has resulted in extensive scientific diving with no dive-related injuries. The basis of the diver evaluation and requirements is the AAUS exemption from stringent OSHA rules governing commercial diving, which was based upon a history of sub-aquatic research under such constraints with little or no accidents resulting in diver injuries."

Further information can be found in:

EXCLUSIONS AND EXEMPTIONS FROM OSHA'S COMMERCIAL DIVING STANDARD
Stephen Sea Butler
U.S. Department of Labor
OSHA Division of Maritime Compliance Assistance
200 Constitution Avenue, N.W.; Room N3610
Washington, DC 20723 USA
 
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