Had my first student today

[NW Dive Dawg]

Hey JRK...... Below is an excerpt from your first post.......and also a copy of my first and only other post on this thread........way back in the beginning.

When you said that you "took her through open water 2, I just assumed that you meant open water. Sorry if I was incorrect on that assumption.

I also did not at all intend to criticize you personally, but rather meant to suggest that you may want to further evaluate both the PADI Standards...and your instructor. You are obviously a young, dedicated and enthusiastic diver on the path to becoming a professional. I wish you the very best on your path forward....and sincerely hope that you'll remain here on the Board... This is a great resource and there are some good folks and great information here..... And yes there will also be some BS but just brush it off and don't let it get to you..

Cheers...

As a trainee divemaster I had my first student today and I took her through open water 2.

As much as I can totally appreciate your enthusiasm and obvious love and dedication to diving.....I think you really need to do a full self evaluation of both the PADI standards and your instructor..... You obviously have the passion and are fortunate that nothing went sideways on your dive today...

All in all..... it sounds like you have the "right stuff"...... Just please be careful and be strict with yourself and your instructor when it comes to standards.

PS...... Do you have professional liability insurance?

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

The OP said second dive ever. I am still not sure of that means CW2 or OW2.. Can you clarify if this was in a pool or in the ocean? Maybe look at your slates where it clearly calls out CW and OW.

Regardless, a DMT is still not to demonstrate skills to a student unless the instructor has already done a demonstration. Yes, the DMT is to demonstrate skills..it is called the skill circuit. But unless things have changed since I was active with PADI, at no point should a DMT be doing the initial skills demo and be in charge.

Oh and since I was asked, I am an inactive PADI instructor and a current RAID DIvemaster Instructor and Tech Trimix instructor so yes, I am qualified to speak on this matter.

But we could always call in the resident PADI expert @boulderjohn for some clarification.

 

[L13]

The OP said second dive ever. I am still not sure of that means CW2 or OW2.. Can you clarify if this was in a pool or in the ocean? Maybe look at your slates where it clearly calls out CW and OW.

Regardless, a DMT is still not to demonstrate skills to a student unless the instructor has already done a demonstration. Yes, the DMT is to demonstrate skills..it is called the skill circuit. But unless things have changed since I was active with PADI, at no point should a DMT be doing the initial skills demo and be in charge.

Oh and since I was asked, I am an inactive PADI instructor and a current RAID DIvemaster Instructor and Tech Trimix instructor so yes, I am qualified to speak on this matter.

But we could always call in the resident PADI expert @boulderjohn for some clarification.

How to you square this position with the PADI Instructor Manual (pg. 130) Practical assessment 1 (for DMT training):
"6. Demonstrate a skill for student divers."

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

How to you square this position with the PADI Instructor Manual (pg. 130) Practical assessment 1 (for DMT training):
"6. Demonstrate a skill for student divers."

Maybe read my post again but let me make it easier for you: "a DMT is still not to demonstrate skills to a student unless the instructor has already done a demonstration. Yes, the DMT is to demonstrate skills..it is called the skill circuit. But unless things have changed since I was active with PADI, at no point should a DMT be doing the initial skills demo and be in charge."

But since you love the PADI instructor manual even though you are not an instructor, maybe we should refer back to page two of this thread with this post:

For reference of what others have mentioned with regards to standards violation, here are the PADI requirements for supervision during the Open Water Diver course.

Copied and pasted from pages 54 and 55 of the Open Water Diver Course Instructor guide from PADI's 2023 Instructor Manual (see full extract attached):

Supervision

Direct Supervision:

1. Do not leave student divers unattended, either at
the surface or underwater.

2. Instructor conducts:
• Initial skills training.
Exceptions:
• Assistant Instructors may conduct initial skills under direct
instructor supervision.
• Certified assistants may conduct advanced snorkeling skills
during Confined Water Dives 2, 3, 4 or 5.
• Final evaluation to verify skill mastery before
open water dives.
3. Instructor conducts and directly supervises all open
water dives.
Exceptions — instructor indirect supervision:
• Certified assistants supervising student divers during surface swims to
and from the entry-exit point and during navigational exercises, as well
as when remaining with the class when the instructor conducts a skill
such as an ascent or descent with a student or student team.
• Certified assistants guiding student divers (at a ratio of 2:1) on Dives 2-4
when exploring the dive site.
• Assistant Instructors evaluating dive flexible skills at the surface in open
water and conducting air pressure checks underwater.

PADI defines a certified assistant as follows (pg 17 of the 2023 Instructor Manual):
A certified assistant is a Teaching Status PADI Instructor, PADI Assistant Instructor or Active Status PADI Divemaster

The initial way I square this is underlined and in bold; point number 2. If you keep reading, it clearly defines who can demo skills and what a certified assistant is per the standards.

I understand you wanting to help the OP, or at least I think you do, but it seems to me you prefer to argue standards with instructors who have studied the standards and taken a test on those standards. We also sign a form stating we will follow those standards. Something his instructor has not done regardless if it is CW2 or OW2.

Most of the posts here are genuinely trying to help him. That is what I have done at every turn and even offered for him to PM so we could chat about standards.

 

[L13]

...it is called the skill circuit...

I understood that to refer to the 24 skills demonstrated in the Dive Skills Workshop listed on pg. 120/121 of the manual. Again I could be wrong, your are definitely more qualified than I am.

The section of the PADI Instructor Manual that deals with DM training (particularly the wording on pg. 130) imply to me that a DMT is require to act as an "Assistant Instructor" for the purposes of the section of the Manual you quoted during their assesments, enabling the first exception bullet under section 2 that you bolded in your excerpt from the manual. Yet again I could be wrong, your are still definitely more qualified than I am.

OP has explicitly stated that this was pool dive 2 (CW2).

I'm not so much trying to help the OP, as trying to mitigate the rush to judgement of his instructor. I am not sure his instructor didn't violate standards, but my sense of justice is offended by the apparent "guilty till proven innocent" attitude on SB with regard to this event. We weren't there, we have limited evidence from the OP, and the instructor in question has no opportunity to defend themselves.

I have rushed to judgment myself on SB, usually to my regret. Maybe I'm just doing penance here. (or maybe I'm making things worse by perpetuating the argument)

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

I understood that to refer to the 24 skills demonstrated in the Dive Skills Workshop listed on pg. 120/121 of the manual. Again I could be wrong, your are definitely more qualified than I am.

The section of the PADI Instructor Manual that deals with DM training (particularly the wording on pg. 130) imply to me that a DMT is require to act as an "Assistant Instructor" for the purposes of the section of the Manual you quoted during their assesments, enabling the first exception bullet under section 2 that you bolded in your excerpt from the manual. Yet again I could be wrong, your are still definitely more qualified than I am.

OP has explicitly stated that this was pool dive 2 (CW2).

I'm not so much trying to help the OP, as trying to mitigate the rush to judgement of his instructor. I am not sure his instructor didn't violate standards, but my sense of justice is offended by the apparent "guilty till proven innocent" attitude on SB with regard to this event. We weren't there, we have limited evidence from the OP, and the instructor in question has no opportunity to defend themselves.

I have rushed to judgment myself on SB, usually to my regret. Maybe I'm just doing penance here. (or maybe I'm making things worse by perpetuating the argument)

Ok, I do think we need to bring the heat level down here a bit so I am sorry if I came off arrogant or mean.

For the sake of this thread, I know the OP said it was the second dive ever but I do not remember seeing anywhere in this thread where he said it was confined water 2.

I do not consider the confined water "dives" as a dive. So when he said the second dive ever, I think it is an ocean dive as we log those dives but do not log confined water sessions.

 

[NorCalDM]

The OP said second dive ever. I am still not sure of that means CW2 or OW2.. Can you clarify if this was in a pool or in the ocean? Maybe look at your slates where it clearly calls out CW and OW.

Regardless, a DMT is still not to demonstrate skills to a student unless the instructor has already done a demonstration. Yes, the DMT is to demonstrate skills..it is called the skill circuit. But unless things have changed since I was active with PADI, at no point should a DMT be doing the initial skills demo and be in charge.

Oh and since I was asked, I am an inactive PADI instructor and a current RAID DIvemaster Instructor and Tech Trimix instructor so yes, I am qualified to speak on this matter.

But we could always call in the resident PADI expert @boulderjohn for some clarification.

Several pages ago he said pool and second dive ever you could assume CW. Just as many assumed the instructor did not demonstrate the skills first.

 

[L13]

Ok, I do think we need to bring the heat level down here a bit so I am sorry if I came off arrogant or mean.

For the sake of this thread, I know the OP said it was the second dive ever but I do not remember seeing anywhere in this thread where he said it was confined water 2.

I do not consider the confined water "dives" as a dive. So when he said the second dive ever, I think it is an ocean dive as we log those dives but do not log confined water sessions.

In this post he says "exactly" when I suggest it might be a pool dive:

Had my first student today

OW2 should be deeper than 2m. I don't think you can count that as a training dive. How many or of your 30 or 50 logged dives were in 2m, if you don't mind me asking. If you've actually been doing a training dive and actually been in 2m of water for OW2, you're basically being scammed by your...

scubaboard.com

 

[L13]

Ok, I do think we need to bring the heat level down here a bit so I am sorry if I came off arrogant or mean.

thanks

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

In this post he says "exactly" when I suggest it might be a pool dive:

Had my first student today

OW2 should be deeper than 2m. I don't think you can count that as a training dive. How many or of your 30 or 50 logged dives were in 2m, if you don't mind me asking. If you've actually been doing a training dive and actually been in 2m of water for OW2, you're basically being scammed by your...

scubaboard.com

To be fair, you did ask if it was a pool dive OR an ocean dive and he said exactly, second dive ever. He never answered you with a definite "it was the second diver ever in a pool" or "second diver ever in the ocean". In the RAID Open Water 20 course, as an instructor, I am to make sure the student logs all the dives we do. When we log them, we do not log confined water but rather OW 1-4. If I were to comment about a student and said an event happened on their second dive ever, I would be referring to a logged open water dive, not a confined water session.


There is a lot of room for interpretation and assumption here. Which I believe is a big problem in this thread. It also shows that the OP does not have a full grasp on the proper terminology a pro should use when describing an event which very likely is not his fault.

I hope he comes back and clarifies but I have my doubts.