GUE Fundamentals Class Report (22 APR 2019)

[Lorenzoid]

I read it as an attitude question. The kind I'd answer with something like "No I don't. This course has taught me that being a GUE diver requires an incredible level of skill and experience, and I can only dedicate myself to improving my skills."

I think you're on to something. Even a person who answers that way might be "a GUE diver" in someone else's eyes. It seems to me that striving for continual personal excellence, regardless of one's present level of performance, is a very GUE-diver-like mindset.

 

[stuartv]

The way Mer explained it to us was that a fundies rec pass was more open ended than a tech pass and that a tech pass meant that the student could begin Tech 1 or Cave 1 that same day and begin training. That being said, I find it potentially problematic if you rejected some very core concepts of GUE like team diving and standard gasses and then went into an intense and, lets face it, dangerous environment like a cave or 200+ft depth for extended time. I would assume other team divers would be apprehensive about diving with you in a non-training setting but when it comes to T1 or C1 courses you would be using standard gasses and diving as a team or they wouldn't let you take the course.

So they'd def give you a rec pass as a self proclaimed solo diver and one who doesn't use standard gasses but they might not if you're trying for a tech pass. I don't think you could even take C1 or T1 without being on board with those two concepts. Gotta ask an instructor.

I realize you are not a GUE instructor and probably would not be able to give an authoritative answer. I was just curious as to how the questions were presented to you and what your impression was regarding the importance of your answers.

I have to also note that being a diver who embraces all gases and solo diving does not mean that diver would reject the use of a Standard Gas or fail to exhibit the appropriate team skills when diving with a team.

Personally, I choose a Best Mix gas when I am making the choice, but I have no problem using a Standard Gas if I'm diving with someone who prefers that. I dive solo when so inclined, but when I am diving with a buddy or buddies, I do my absolute best to employ the best team skills that I can.

It's not a rejection of those concepts. It's just not being limited by them.

And my curiosity on whether a GUE instructor would deny a Tech Pass solely for the reason of a diver not necessarily always limiting themselves in those ways that GUE prescribes.

@Lorenzoid has suggested that the questions you were asked were a course evaluation that had no bearing on the results you were given, even though the questions were asked before you were actually given your results. If that is truly how it is, then it sounds good to me!

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
Personally, I choose a Best Mix gas when I am making the choice, but I have no problem using a Standard Gas if I'm diving with someone who prefers that. I dive solo when so inclined, but when I am diving with a buddy or buddies, I do my absolute best to employ the best team skills that I can. . . .

Exactly. Why could a diver not wear multiple hats? Maybe he considers himself being a "GUE diver" on some dives and not others. Labels suck. GUE does not suck.

 

[CptTightPants21]

You need to loosen up your pants every now and then Captain. They are on too tight and it shows frankly.

Yeah I'm serious. Stuart has been on this site for 4-5 years, there are countless GUE class reports and discussion from GUE divers. We had this wonderfully detailed and informative class report and his question is "Will the instructor withhold a card from a passing student if the student doesn't drink all the kool-aid after class?"

Lorenzoid is doing a great job answering the questions so I'm not going to address it further, but Stuart should know better from his diving experience and his time on this site. He implied malevolent intent to innocuous questions that were asked before and after class and meant to provide feedback and generate discussion.

 

[stuartv]

Yeah I'm serious. Stuart has been on this site for 4-5 years, there are countless GUE class reports and discussion from GUE divers. We had this wonderfully detailed and informative class report and his question is "Will the instructor withhold a card from a passing student if the student doesn't drink all the kool-aid after class?"

Lorenzoid is doing a great job answering the questions so I'm not going to address it further, but Stuart should know better from his diving experience and his time on this site. He implied malevolent intent to innocuous questions that were asked before and after class and meant to provide feedback and generate discussion.

You are reading way too much into my question. Sensitive much? Did I strike a chord?

There is no "malevolent intent" in wanting to know whether a Tech Pass only requires the watermanship and passing the written test, or if it also requires heartfelt endorsement of ALL the rules/policies/whatever you want to call them. Personally, I would expect any tech or intro to tech type of course to include SOME kind of evaluation of the student's mindset. I would expect someone to not pass if the instructor found them to have the in-water skills and the book knowledge, yet demonstrate totally inadequate judgment. I was left to wonder, based on this report, whether that "inadequate judgment" assessment might be applied to someone who gets to the end of Fundies and still thinks solo diving is fine or diving on air to 130 feet is fine.

What you and @Lorenzoid seem to be asserting is that there is no assessment of judgment that would influence whether you pass or fail Fundies? Or, at least, that that assessment is over and done with and the questions at the end do not have any influence on that.

I have read many Fundies reports. I don't recall seeing others that mentioned this set of questions at the end of the course and before getting their results. Thus, me asking the question now and not after reading any of the previous Fundies reports.

You DO get how asking these questions before telling the student their results could give the APPEARANCE that their answers might influence the result they are given, don't you?

If Mer wanted to avoid even that appearance, she might consider asking the student to write down their answers and hold them, then give the student their results, and THEN review the student's written answers. But, that is neither here nor there.

 

[Lorenzoid]

For the record, what I said was my suspicion or belief, not an assertion. Only GUE knows for sure why they do what they do. Maybe an instructor will chime in, as they sometimes do.

 

[1atm]

Thanks for the great report! And, congratulations on earning your Rec pass!

Any idea how the answers to these questions would affect getting a Rec or Tech pass?



For example, what if your answers had been:

4. Do you consider yourself a GUE Diver?
No.
5. Why or why not?
I don't believe that Nitrox is required for every dive - air is fine for many dives at recreational depths. I would generally choose the Best Mix for a dive, rather than limit myself to a Standard Gas. And, I believe that Solo diving is perfectly acceptable for people with the right training, skills, mindset, and equipment.

Do you think you would still have gotten your Rec pass? Would someone who otherwise qualified still get a Tech pass?

I’m not quite sure where the impression of the hardcore zealots comes from. In the real world I don’t know any - everyone operates with common sense and leveraging the tools they are given in the training. But even if you were a 100% standards nazi, then close inspection of the standards will show you that the hard limit is END 30m - so you can absolutely dive air to that depth within GUE standards, if that’s what is important to you ;-)

 

[scubadada]

I’m not quite sure where the impression of the hardcore zealots comes from. In the real world I don’t know any - everyone operates with common sense and leveraging the tools they are given in the training. But even if you were a 100% standards nazi, then close inspection of the standards will show you that the hard limit is END 30m - so you can absolutely dive air to that depth within GUE standards, if that’s what is important to you ;-)

All the way to 98, or 100 ft? Just returned from a great trip to Revillagigedos, 6 of 19 dives had a max depth deeper than that, no helium available, you can't go? Just wondering how this works out in practice, seems pretty limiting

 

[Compressor]

@PullYourselfTogetherMan Thanks for your report and congratulations on passing.

 

[stuartv]

I’m not quite sure where the impression of the hardcore zealots comes from. In the real world I don’t know any - everyone operates with common sense and leveraging the tools they are given in the training. But even if you were a 100% standards nazi, then close inspection of the standards will show you that the hard limit is END 30m - so you can absolutely dive air to that depth within GUE standards, if that’s what is important to you ;-)

You may not have met any hardcore zealots, but they are out there and not really that hard to find. I had typed in 3 different stories of them, but I decided 2 of them were other people's stories and I didn't want to get them in trouble by telling their stories and having the instructors they were dealing with figure out where the stories came from.

I just did a week of diving in NC. All the dives were between 109 and 116 feet. I actually tried to get helium (for my CCR), and I couldn't make it happen.

Also, they bank EAN30 there, so all the Nitrox divers had 30%. If Standards require 32%, I guess adherents to standards (and Standard Gases) either can't dive there or have to always bring all their own? And not do any of the dives that are deeper than 100' (which is most of them).

Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining or saying there is anything wrong with what they're doing (well, except for teaching about something that you have no experience with - one of the stories I deleted). Dive and let dive.

But, I'll be dipped if I would pass up an opportunity to dive the U-352 because I couldn't get helium, or because I couldn't get EAN32 (which I guess is moot when you're talking about a dive to 115', where helium would be required anyway). Y'all have a nice time on the boat. I'll be back in a while.