GUE/DIR/WKPP vs the world?

[ScubaSteve]

As an outsider, I need to ask for clarification please.

Are the WKPP requesting that only their team members be allowed access to certain cave systems forever (i.e. even after they are done their "scientific" studies/dives)? Or are they asking that people not be allowed access until after they are done with their studies (i.e. not during the time that their studies are happening)?

 

[danvolker]

Let's add an analogy for "earned access" .... Let's say you suffered a bad bike crash, and have major swelling in your brain...you need a brain surgeon to relieve the pressure, etc.....
Do you look for a really good brain surgeon with a great track record of success, OR...do you let your buddy Billybob do the drilling into your head, cause he tells you he read all about the surgery, and that he thinks he could do this just fine, and for free.....one has a track record and has earned access to your brain...has the other ?


Earned access needs to be applied to certain cave systems where enormous temptations will exist for some people to make very stupid decisions....the cost of these bad decisions would be borne by the public at large, after the fact.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Read my post Kelly, I understand where they came from - I just don't want to(or appreciate anyone else) perpetuating that the same exists today.

The problem is the land owners, most who received their land because it's been in their family for decades, only remember the deaths that occurred back in the 70s. They only remember that when someone goes in that hole, they don't come out. And to their limited knowledge, they now think that body is forever entombed under their land. This is what's is so difficult to get past. Sure there are some that can and have been educated. The WCDC has done a lot to open up sites in Wakulla. However, there are still lots of sites that remain off limits because it's so difficult to educate people that things have changed. We've been trying to change attitudes and beliefs in Jackson County for years. While the county is finally on board and actually supporting cave diving, none of the local land owners are. As we get closer, something then happens and we get slapped back. And this has nothing to do with the WKPP or GUE. It just has to do with what they remember happening back in the 70s.

 

[ucfdiver]

As an outsider, I need to ask for clarification please.

Are the WKPP requesting that only their team members be allowed access to certain cave systems forever (i.e. even after they are done their "scientific" studies/dives)? Or are they asking that people not be allowed access until after they are done with their studies (i.e. not during the time that their studies are happening)?

No one from the WKPP has made a public statement on opening it to recreational diving.

 

[seaducer]

Its no secret that I just want to dive for fun, thats not really their mission. That doesn't change the fact that I should be allowed to have my fun on state owned, public property.

I'm not a caver nor do I live in Florida, but to me this really is the crux of the issue. Will recreational diving hinder the science that WKPP is doing? Is this science really crucial to our understanding of...what?

Unless the science is important enough to lock out all others, and that those others would in fact be interfering with that science, this site and all others on public land should be open. Period. Even to those who are not certified to dive there.

I assure you I don't possess vastly superior knowledge. GUE, UTD, WKPP, DIR and so on, have raised the bar for everyone. I won't argue that one bit. To say people need saving from themselves is arrogant and unrealistic.

This line goes straight into the heart of my first point. This mentality has blossomed but it should never have been allowed to leave the womb of bad ideas.

Life itself is a gamble, a risk, and to my preference one series of adventures after another. Do some people need saving from themselves? Absolutely they do, but the person responsible is also the person putting themselves at risk in the first place. Not GUE, UTD, WKPP, or for Pete's sake the government!

It would be a bad idea to enter a cave system without the proper training and gear, but people did so, and developed the solutions being taught today.

It was a bad idea to sail across the ocean, lest you fall off the edge of the Earth once as well. But someone did it and now I have a place to live.

It was a bad idea once to fly faster than the speed of sound.

It was a bad idea once to leave the atmosphere and try to land on the Moon.

Those that did so were regailed as heros. Some people are born risk takers.

So I ask again, from an admitted position of ignorance. Is the science that the WKPP is conducting crucial to the greater good of Florida, and would recreational cave diving in that system interfere with that science?

If teh answer to both questions is a legitimate yes, than I support only the WKPP having access. If the answer to either question is a legitimate no, then they need to step aside and allow others in. They don't own that land and have no right to tell others who should have the same rights of access to public land as any other tax payer to go home.

I don't want to hear any garbage about protecting people from making mistakes. It is my life to live and lose and the only other person who has a right to an opinion on how I do so is my wife.

 

[danvolker]

I'm not a caver nor do I live in Florida, but to me this really is the crux of the issue. Will recreational diving hinder the science that WKPP is doing? Is this science really crucial to our understanding of...what?

Unless the science is important enough to lock out all others, and that those others would in fact be interfering with that science, this site and all others on public land should be open. Period. Even to those who are not certified to dive there.




This line goes straight into the heart of my first point. This mentality has blossomed but it should never have been allowed to leave the womb of bad ideas.

Life itself is a gamble, a risk, and to my preference one series of adventures after another. Do some people need saving from themselves? Absolutely they do, but the person responsible is also the person putting themselves at risk in the first place. Not GUE, UTD, WKPP, or for Pete's sake the government!

It would be a bad idea to enter a cave system without the proper training and gear, but people did so, and developed the solutions being taught today.

It was a bad idea to sail across the ocean, lest you fall off the edge of the Earth once as well. But someone did it and now I have a place to live.

It was a bad idea once to fly faster than the speed of sound.

It was a bad idea once to leave the atmosphere and try to land on the Moon.

Those that did so were regailed as heros. Some people are born risk takers.

So I ask again, from an admitted position of ignorance. Is the science that the WKPP is conducting crucial to the greater good of Florida, and would recreational cave diving in that system interfere with that science?

If teh answer to both questions is a legitimate yes, than I support only the WKPP having access. If the answer to either question is a legitimate no, then they need to step aside and allow others in. They don't own that land and have no right to tell others who should have the same rights of access to public land as any other tax payer to go home.

I don't want to hear any garbage about protecting people from making mistakes. It is my life to live and lose and the only other person who has a right to an opinion on how I do so is my wife.

On the science question, WKPP has performed invaluable research work in the study of Aquifers and how ground water in cities, towns and farm areas, works it's way down to the aquifers and ultimately can become drinking water for huge populations....or, can become so horribly polluted by fertilizers or waste petroleum and other urban by-products, that the water bearing strata is left worthless for drinking ( in an age where drinking water is getting ever scarcer, and more expensive). This was one of the first large scale "testing grounds" for hydrogeologists, to learn previously unknown but crucial issues regarding aquifers and the recharge areas. If you remember highschool or college science and geology, we were taght about layers of impermeable rock and clay, and layers of sand that would function like a huge pipe-way for water transport underground. It was known that fractures and different thicknesses of the suppossedly impermeable boundary layers, would allow recharge of the aquifers--to let ground water percolate through it, cleaning the water ( theoretically like a diatomaceous earth pool filter)....Wakulla with its vast dissolved limestone boundary layers-now turned aquifer--this being one way to discuss the enormous cave system, was one of the largest Aquifer systems on earth that a hydrogeologist could actually have divers enter, and run specific test on recharge areas, on polution levels from farms or towns, and for tests of dilution potential for the aquifer over miles from each recharge or pollution entry point. This is a growing science, and one which will be crucial in assisting the state in laws to prevent the destruction of our critical drinking water resources, by agriculture, by landfills, by gas stations, and all manners of pollution byproducts of our activities. There are new ideas as to "where' can be safe", and new ideas as to what and where is absolutely NOT safe for discharge.


As to protecting people from themselves, as a previous astute poster already mentioned, landowners have issues that do not effect the ocean or outer space.
If you want to sail accross the Atlantic in a Laser ( tiny sailboat) , you may hurt your family terribly when you are swallowed by a 50 foot wave, but overall, no damage is done to the public ( beyond the possible need for widdow and children to be supported by the state in your absence).

If a fool swam into a cave under your private land, and died in this cave 1 mile back in to it, his family may sue you for not having posted no tresspassing signs, or for not having a metal gate barring access to such a dangerous cave. It will become YOUR fault that the fool died. WKPP did not do this...This is part of our pathetically litigous society, where no one wants to take personal responsibility for their own actions. Everyone wants to blame their accidents on someone else. Few want to achieve exceptional skill levels that would prevent these accidents--the statistics are clear--the masses will not have the neccessary coordination or skill, they wll get hurt, and they WILL blame you or someone for their failings.
You want to change the access problem today....start working on getting the masses to believe it is reprehensible to sue when it is a person's own fault that they were hurt. This is impossible, for all practical purposes, but I WOULD LOVE to be proven wrong on this. Please prove me wrong

 

[seaducer]

On the science question, WKPP has performed invaluable research work in the study of Aquifers and how ground water in cities, towns and farm areas, works it's way down to the aquifers and ultimately can become drinking water for huge populations-snip-

While I am not wholey qualified to judge, that certainly sounds important for me, now the question remains would the presence of other cave divers not diving in conjunction with the WKPP hinder their ability to continue this research?

If a fool swam into a cave under your private land, and died in this cave 1 mile back in to it, his family may sue you for not having posted no tresspassing signs, or for not having a metal gate barring access to such a dangerous cave. It will become YOUR fault that the fool died. WKPP did not do this...This is part of our pathetically litigous society, where no one wants to take personal responsibility for their own actions. Everyone wants to blame their accidents on someone else. Few want to achieve exceptional skill levels that would prevent these accidents--the statistics are clear--the masses will not have the neccessary coordination or skill, they wll get hurt, and they WILL blame you or someone for their failings.
You want to change the access problem today....start working on getting the masses to believe it is reprehensible to sue when it is a person's own fault that they were hurt. This is impossible, for all practical purposes, but I WOULD LOVE to be proven wrong on this. Please prove me wrong

Im not in disagreement with a lot of this, and I think the way things are going is bad and we need to change. Personal responsibility is the key, and I resent my life being limited by the lack of imagination in others BUT...

1- I saw earlier in the thread this system is accessed on State Park land? In my opinion this means that all citizens should have the same levels of access. (except in fragile or important ecosystems where education or a "purpose" is the only way to get in) Personally I would prefer that to mean anyone regardless of training or qualifications, but for a start I would settle for the State mandating reasonable restrictions such as a cave cert and what amounts to minimum "standard" gear, whatever that may be.

2- Not everyone who tresspasses and gets hurt or killed can successfully sue the property owner. Personally I would have it that if you had to be on my property to be hurt of killed you give up the right to sue me for anything, unless I was breaking the law, in which case only the prosecutors should be able to "sue" me. The court system was never designed to provide an income for anyone other than those who practice law. And to my mind some of them need a lot more practice.

Thanks for the response, it was enlightening. I can't fully agree with the limits as I see them yet, but one question is certainly a yes.

 

[danvolker]

While I am not wholey qualified to judge, that certainly sounds important for me, now the question remains would the presence of other cave divers not diving in conjunction with the WKPP hinder their ability to continue this research?

A big problem with other groups, is the potential for liability BECAUSE they do not dive with the ENORMOUS set of ABSOLUTELY ENFORCED Safety Protocols. Earlier I posted on the Stone project, because it was a group with supposedly strong safety protocols and well trained divers....because they, like a great many cave diving groups today do not use the STRICT SAFETY PROTOCOLS of the WKPP, a skilled diver died..and he died because of failure to follow protocols...

If you allow any cave group access to Wakulla, exactly what way do you have to make sure they follow strict protocols?
The state is EXTREMELY sensitive to deaths in the park, and the potential for enormous liability. If the park became open to all, and a death ensued, can't you just hear the attorney for the dead diver's family going through the long list of deaths in lesser caves, building the case for the terrible potential for death in this cave, and how could the state have been so negligent, as to MAKE THE PUBLIC BELIEVE IT WAS ABSOLUTELY SAFE to dive here!!!!
Remember, this is a world where you can be sued for serving hot coffee to somene who was unaware that if it spilled on them, it could burn them!!!

I would also imagine, that the state also has much bigger pockets than do most private landowners--so the appeal of a huge lawsuit for "negligence by the state", would make many attorneys get goosebumps and experience heart palpitations

 

[rjack321]

Mission StatementTo provide resource-based recreation while preserving, interpreting and restoring natural and cultural resources.

Vision
The Florida State Park System creates a sense of place and is recognized as containing the best of Florida's diverse natural and cultural heritage sustained for future generations while providing quality and appropriate resource-based recreational opportunities, interpretation and education that help visitors connect to "The Real Florida."

I am not seeing what is so unique about Wakulla to justify its "diving for research only" status. Eagle's is comparable depth and wide open via a different owner-agency. BTW, the State, whether parks or fish & wildlife has immunity for injuries or deaths from diving as well.

 

[seaducer]

AIf you allow any cave group access to Wakulla, exactly what way do you have to make sure they follow strict protocols?

Ok, if the reason that Wakulla is open to the WKPP only isbecause of their record and SOP, why not close all caves to anyone not part of the WKPP? Surely there are other cave systems on State land? I don't know, maybe there aren't any but there are a fair amount of cave systems being safely dived by other people, so the safety argument really does not hold any water.

I am not seeing what is so unique about Wakulla to justify its "diving for research only" status. Eagle's is comparable depth and wide open via a different owner-agency. BTW, the State, whether parks or fish & wildlife has immunity for injuries or deaths from diving as well.

Perhaps there is some unique about it, perhaps the land over it, or that it has been closed to divers and there for somewhat untouched. There could be legitimate reasons for keeping it closed for scientific purposes, but I didn't see any here.

I also was under the impression that states were immune from lawsuits like those related to people dieing or getting hurt in parks and so forth. If that were not the case then there would be no public playgrounds and skateparks, and Florida would prohibit diving in it's marine parks as well...