GUE/DIR/WKPP vs the world?

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

You want to imagine this as "arrogance"..... For you to be able to make such a claim, you would have to have vastly superior knowledge...so who is arrogant ?

I assure you I don't possess vastly superior knowledge. GUE, UTD, WKPP, DIR and so on, have raised the bar for everyone. I won't argue that one bit. To say people need saving from themselves is arrogant and unrealistic. Saying that continues the perception of a cult-like "better than thou" group. This negates most of the good that is there by that high and mighty attitude. In a public forum that goes far.

In my journeys I have seen a lot of DIR types that are very personable and down to earth. The post, I quoted, was far from that (as well as many others) in this thread. Not all cave divers want to or even have the ability to do the dives some of you guys do. Many do short dives in big cave. Many of us like the smaller and off the beaten path stuff. Some like a reciprocal route on a scooter or swim dive. And, some are way beyond their ability and training. That will always be a fact of life in any sport but you know this. You are very respected and I would not even think of challenging your knowledge and experience.

My gripe, if you will, is the attitude I mentioned above. When I was 20-25 I could have, been taught to and, done the dives that WKPP does. I was in perfect shape, my mind was super sharp, etc. At 47, I have limits that didn't exist when I was 25. I am not gonna quit diving or cave diving because of this. I just modify what I do, work smart instead of hard, if you will. The type of diving the WKPP does is not for everyone and to suggest people who can't do this shouldn't dive, or things similar to this, is a poor example and breeds contempt. It does more harm than good when attempting to show people a way that can be beneficial. If not arrogant it comes across as rude.

If I came across as arrogant....my appologies, to you, sir...Sincerely. Mark

 

[lamont]

JJ and Casey aren't 25 any more...

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

JJ and Casey aren't 25 any more...

My point exactly! Arrogant. You can't see past "I can and you can't so you shouldn't". "JJ and Casey can do this and JJ and Casey can do that" If you can't speak for yourself maybe you should stop sounding like a parrot. You have however proven my point. Come on down to the panhandle and bring some sidemount gear. 47was not an excuse. I still can too but that was not my point.........but you did make my point for me.

 

[vladimir]

Come on down to the panhandle and bring some sidemount gear.

Challenge!...the Thrillah in Wakulla!

 

[karstdvr]

I don't think that is a fair assessment....the context I would put it in......there was a war going on from the mid-nineties til just after 2003 or so....this because in the early to mid nineties, there really were a lot of deaths, and there was a large movement to get more diver's into cave and tech environments, with very questionable training. The "war" was the wkpp against the poster boy offenders, those seen as pushing agendas likely to cause the most stupidities and deaths. I saw this first hand, and know for a fact this was not rhetoric. It was diver deaths that got George pissed. That was the motivation on the wkpp side....on the other side, I'd have to guess, but I would think either money, glory, or ego, all absent of appropriate concern for the lives in question.

I think my previous post was a somewhat fair,although very abbreviated post. I was invited to join the WKPP with someone who wanted to sponsor me,but turned it down,and conversely was asked to be a support person for Wakulla2 which I turned down. I support both groups missions,and feel they both have made some valuable contributions.

I have to partially agree that there were many stupid fatalities then,and that may have been the impetus that got George "PO'd",but it was the continued diatribes and slander that acted to fuel his ego. He invited people on the cavers list to have a flame war with him because he would "whip your ass". Maybe this was his perceived means of teaching the nonteam oriented divers that his method was better,and was a zealot. I don't know,or actually I may know some because I maintained several WKPP friends during that time. Either way,his behavior was unacceptable as a person who was leading an organization that was performing science and publishing,this set the WKPP back in the public relations venue. His behavior lead the founders of the WKPP to step forward and make their opinions heard too The current directors in my opinion have done a great job in continuing the mission,and may have some differences of opinion with the recreational cave diving community, but it isn't conducted as a smear campaign on the internet.

 

[karstdvr]

I don't care about the WKPP, I care about where I can dive.



Your entire contribution to this thread shows that you can't move past the '90s.

Mat
I have to agree with Dan here,it is important to understand what occured in the 90's,and how that has affected the area where you dive. I used to drive up and dive any spot in Wakulla county,and this changed very quickly,and somethings during that time period caused the transition. It your goal is get more sites open,then coming to grips with the WKPP and what they did is important,because they got many of the closed sites open,and since they did the hard work themselves,it was accessible only to their members. The WKPP is hugely popular if not well known in Wakulla county,because they put that county in the spotlight with their record setting dives,but the enigma was left behind that their techniques are the only safe way of diving,and their then leader at the time used to tell them to buy body bags if other people dive those caves.
Understanding what happened during that time period is what has lead me to some successes in getting a better public understanding,and relax the fear of cave divers.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I understand what happened in the '90s, but its a different time and its not a given that the same thing will happen again. Its 20 years later, all the easy stuff has been pushed, deaths from those out for glory aren't happening on the every days basis, and people are diving the Wakulla-Leon system regularly without kacking out.

Telling the state that your the only group who can dive these systems safely is pure grade 100% horse****.




You might as well throw us back to the 70s.

 

[karstdvr]

I understand what happened in the '90s, but its a different time and its not a given that the same thing will happen again. Its 20 years later, all the easy stuff has been pushed, deaths from those out for glory aren't happening on the every days basis, and people are diving the Wakulla-Leon system regularly without kacking out.

Telling the state that your the only group who can dive these systems safely is pure grade 100% horse****.




You might as well throw us back to the 70s.

There is a strong perception by the public that has occured in the 90's to 2000's,and those perceptions exist now. I have had to undo some of the perceptions when opening up some places,and understanding how they occured,or where they came from,made my job a lot easier.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Read my post Kelly, I understand where they came from - I just don't want to(or appreciate anyone else) perpetuating that the same exists today.

 

[danvolker]

I understand what happened in the '90s, but its a different time and its not a given that the same thing will happen again. Its 20 years later, all the easy stuff has been pushed, deaths from those out for glory aren't happening on the every days basis, and people are diving the Wakulla-Leon system regularly without kacking out.

Telling the state that your the only group who can dive these systems safely is pure grade 100% horse****.




You might as well throw us back to the 70s.

I would agree that today there are some situations which are improved over the nineties, but there are also some which are worse.....I think the tech and cave agencies do a better job today than they did in the nineties, and there is no doubt that much more science exists to educate cave diver's on the critical issues, should they desire to become highly proficient......at the same time, there is a large segment of the US population, that has gone in reverse for intelligence, awareness, and common sense--- I submit the TV show "Jackass"" and the existence of 2 generations of self indulgent morons that actually look for things to do that would typically kill a person-- and they do it for bragging rights and you-tube clips. These are not athletes or individuals dedicated to exploration and the pursuit of adventure, mitigated by extreme training.....these are non-athletes with a dis-regard for training and knowledge, out to prove they can do whatever they want to.

I am suggesting there are still people that could very well take advantage of a wide open WAKULLA and the past history and danger, And it would actually increase their desire to attempt a huge penetration they have no business considering. This could easily be worse today than it was 20 years ago, due to the age of YouTube fame and reduced valuations of knowledge, training, and earned access.

I'd also suggest that the basin at WAKULLA is not the "end-all" dream dive site worth moving heaven and earth for....public access to this for recreational diving would be a silly thing to push so hard for, when there are so many better places for recreational diver's to have wonderful diving experiences. You know, your not allowed to dive recreationally in the sewage lines either....is that a reason to lobby for your access?