GUE/DIR/WKPP vs the world?

[danvolker]

Ok, if the reason that Wakulla is open to the WKPP only isbecause of their record and SOP, why not close all caves to anyone not part of the WKPP? Surely there are other cave systems on State land? I don't know, maybe there aren't any but there are a fair amount of cave systems being safely dived by other people, so the safety argument really does not hold any water.



Perhaps there is some unique about it, perhaps the land over it, or that it has been closed to divers and there for somewhat untouched. There could be legitimate reasons for keeping it closed for scientific purposes, but I didn't see any here.

I also was under the impression that states were immune from lawsuits like those related to people dieing or getting hurt in parks and so forth. If that were not the case then there would be no public playgrounds and skateparks, and Florida would prohibit diving in it's marine parks as well...

Someone who actually knows the liability issues for the state can certain jump in here...one thing I would bet on....regardless of the supposed immunity of a park as suggested, if any florida park began experiencing an increasing number of deaths, there would be a sudden probability of closure until the reasons for the deaths were determined. State Parks can not be associated with frequent death events.

 

[Blackwood]

Another non-caver / non-Floridian post, take it FWIW.

I agree in principle with Seaducer's views on nanny states, public access, etc..

That said:

It's difficult to get access to things that have traditionally been state "stay out" zones. It's easier to obtain limited access than it is to obtain universal access. So I find it difficult to fault WKPP for not actively lobbying for public access to Wakulla.

Further, some divers in the basin probably wouldn't affect WKPP's deep science. But it's not far-fetched to assume that a death or injury even of a non-related third party within the system would affect WKPP's access and thus ability to continue their mission. So I find it difficult to fault them even if they actively try to prevent others from gaining access while the project continues.

 

[ScubaSteve]

A big problem with other groups, is the potential for liability BECAUSE they do not dive with the ENORMOUS set of ABSOLUTELY ENFORCED Safety Protocols. Earlier I posted on the Stone project, because it was a group with supposedly strong safety protocols and well trained divers....because they, like a great many cave diving groups today do not use the STRICT SAFETY PROTOCOLS of the WKPP, a skilled diver died..and he died because of failure to follow protocols...

If you allow any cave group access to Wakulla, exactly what way do you have to make sure they follow strict protocols?
The state is EXTREMELY sensitive to deaths in the park, and the potential for enormous liability. If the park became open to all, and a death ensued, can't you just hear the attorney for the dead diver's family going through the long list of deaths in lesser caves, building the case for the terrible potential for death in this cave, and how could the state have been so negligent, as to MAKE THE PUBLIC BELIEVE IT WAS ABSOLUTELY SAFE to dive here!!!!
Remember, this is a world where you can be sued for serving hot coffee to somene who was unaware that if it spilled on them, it could burn them!!!

I would also imagine, that the state also has much bigger pockets than do most private landowners--so the appeal of a huge lawsuit for "negligence by the state", would make many attorneys get goosebumps and experience heart palpitations

But where is the guarantee that deaths will happen immediately upon non-WKPP divers enter the cave system? You seem to be convinced that as soon as it opens up divers will drop like flies. I do not buy it. If the ONLY protocols that will guarantee a diver's safe return are the WKPP protocols, then change the training and make every diver safer.

This all appears to be (to a non cave trained and nowhere near popular caves) a certain group brainwashing the state or whomever to keep their playgrounds to themselves. Obviously I do not know everything there is to know about the history so I am open to cahange my opinion, but nothing that I have read here would imply anything else.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Further, some divers in the basin probably wouldn't affect WKPP's deep science. But is not far-fetched to assume that a death or injury even of a non-related third party within the system would affect WKPP's access and thus ability to continued their mission. So I find it difficult to fault them even if they actively try to prevent others from gaining access while the project continues.

This is why I asked earlier if they wanted divers out while they were studying (until finished) or even after that. I agree that if there is scientific benefit in what they are doing and other divers may negatively impact that then lock it up until they are done. I could get my head around that. But to just lock some up for no other reason is just wrong and there really is no good reason. Nothing said in this thread even comes close to making a good argument for that.

 

[Blackwood]

But to just lock some up for no other reason is just wrong and there really is no good reason. Nothing said in this thread even comes close to making a good argument for that.

Is that reality? Does WKPP have the authority to keep others out (as far as I understand: no) and do they arbitrarily use that authority to keep out the riffraff (given my aforementioned understanding by definition: no)?

If that's not the reality if the situation, why even bother trying to justify it? It's like the wookie defense from south park.

 

[danvolker]

But where is the guarantee that deaths will happen immediately upon non-WKPP divers enter the cave system? You seem to be convinced that as soon as it opens up divers will drop like flies. I do not buy it. If the ONLY protocols that will guarantee a diver's safe return are the WKPP protocols, then change the training and make every diver safer.

This all appears to be (to a non cave trained and nowhere near popular caves) a certain group brainwashing the state or whomever to keep their playgrounds to themselves. Obviously I do not know everything there is to know about the history so I am open to cahange my opinion, but nothing that I have read here would imply anything else.

I think it is safe to say that the other agencies WILL NOT train with the entire set of WKPP protocols, largely because MOST cave diver's would refuse this level of mandatory training and strict compliance. Most cave diver's want less intense safety protocols and less intense training-- otherwise, most cave diver's would be GUE trained cave diver's...

 

[ScubaSteve]

Is that reality? Does WKPP have the authority to keep others out (as far as I understand: no) and do they arbitrarily use that authority (given my aforementioned understanding by definition: no)?

If that's not the reality if the situation, why even bother trying to justify it?

Something caused the OP to start this thread and for others to have similar feelings to that of the OP. I have seen people argue both sides and nobody has really proven anything IMO. That is why the question still exists. If it is NO, then it is no. If it is yes, then it is yes. It has been said that WKPP have said nothing publically but that does not mean they are or are not lobbying to keep the sites private (but the fact that there are people arguing in support of the supposed WKPP position implies that there is some truth to it). I know it is unlikely that there will be written testimony of any sort......so even a compelling argument could be considered true. Who has such an argument?

 

[lamont]

My point exactly! Arrogant. You can't see past "I can and you can't so you shouldn't". "JJ and Casey can do this and JJ and Casey can do that" If you can't speak for yourself maybe you should stop sounding like a parrot. You have however proven my point. Come on down to the panhandle and bring some sidemount gear. 47was not an excuse. I still can too but that was not my point.........but you did make my point for me.

No, that wasn't arrogant. That is pointing out that there's nothing stopping you from getting good enough to dive Wakulla, getting the permitting done with the state, and going and diving it. However, pissing away electrons on the internet isn't getting you any closer to that goal. So put up, or shut up. And that isn't arrogant, that's just being unwilling to listen to someone who is all talk and bitching...

 

[rjack321]

Someone who actually knows the liability issues for the state can certain jump in here...one thing I would bet on....regardless of the supposed immunity of a park as suggested, if any florida park began experiencing an increasing number of deaths, there would be a sudden probability of closure until the reasons for the deaths were determined. State Parks can not be associated with frequent death events.

Uhuh. I'm not buying this argument. If it were true then places like Biscayne Bay (National Park) should for sure be closed to diving. I'm sure more people will die there while diving come lobster season. Ditto Eagle's Nest (cave) yet despite two recent deaths there Fish and Wildlife keeps it open.

The fact is that State Parks are held in perpetuity as public recreational ammenities. The rest of the state, including non-WKPP cave divers, subsidizes its existence though the general fund.

Closing Wakulla to certain forms of recreation is fine, let's just say diving recreation is incompatible with the tour boats. (Although that's not necessarily true we can pretend that there are 2 conflicting uses which cannot be reconciled and one "must" win, in this case the tour boats.) If scuba recreation is incompatible with Wakulla, fine. Close it.

I'm not seeing many "research" exceptions in State Parks mission statement or vision. And besides a very pretty map of Wakulla I have not seen any peer reviewed scientific or geology publications generated by the WKPP research. Since you are familar with them more than I, could you please post a list of citations demonstrating the importance of the WKPP research so the public can see the value of making a diving exception?

I will admit the very pretty karst GIS map appeals to policy makers and legislatures. But really the fact that the water in really big rivers flowing in really big underground karst features has a very short time-of-travel is sort of a geologic "duh".

 

[Blackwood]

Something caused the OP to start this thread and for others to have similar feelings to that of the OP. I have seen people argue both sides and nobody has really proven anything IMO. That is why the question still exists. If it is NO, then it is no. If it is yes, then it is yes. It has been said that WKPP have said nothing publically but that does not mean they are or are not lobbying to keep the sites private (but the fact that there are people arguing in support of the supposed WKPP position implies that there is some truth to it). I know it is unlikely that there will be written testimony of any sort......so even a compelling argument could be considered true. Who has such an argument?

So it's a "if they are doing this, why" thread?

Burden of proof is on the believer ti show that they arbitrarily work to keep people out of their playground for reasons independent of the mission and their perceived ability to complete it.

Otherwise this is just a "are you still beating your wife?" discussion.