GUE/DIR/WKPP vs the world?

[karstdvr]

There are many old posts which portray the results of the "wrong" groups being given access to pristine but dangerous sites like Wakulla.....the WKPP versus Wakulla 2 projects were exactly on point for this.....
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Wow,pulled some of the old caver's list rhetoric. To give this some context,many people looked at this forum as flame-war-royale,and a lot of testosterone induced chest thumping. These WKPP vs Wakulla 2 "discussions" were a one sided diatribe carried on by the then WKPP director with the sole intent of discrediting the Wakulla 2 project. Does a leader of a credible scientific project like the WKPP behave this way,he did,and as some WKPP members will quitely admit that he damaged their reputation with his antics. I will freely admit that the WKPP has provided some great science data,and so did the Wakulla 2 project,unfortunately this was clouded by emotional rants that would be read on the cavers list.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

March 10, 2008-- Mark Fyvie @ Ginnie

My original thread actually included his name, but I didn't/don't think he was trying to make a name for himself at all - most didn't know who he was until he hit the news reports as a dead diver.

Before that, I can think of maybe Ron Simmons in 2005?

Steve Berman in 2001?





Which IMO just goes to backup my point, explorers aren't dying all over the US from pushing cave on the regular basis.

 

[danvolker]

Wow,pulled some of the old caver's list rhetoric. To give this some context,many people looked at this forum as flame-war-royale,and a lot of testosterone induced chest thumping. These WKPP vs Wakulla 2 "discussions" were a one sided diatribe carried on by the then WKPP director with the sole intent of discrediting the Wakulla 2 project. Does a leader of a credible scientific project like the WKPP behave this way,he did,and as some WKPP members will quitely admit that he damaged their reputation with his antics. I will freely admit that the WKPP has provided some great science data,and so did the Wakulla 2 project,unfortunately this was clouded by emotional rants that would be read on the cavers list.

I don't think that is a fair assessment....the context I would put it in......there was a war going on from the mid-nineties til just after 2003 or so....this because in the early to mid nineties, there really were a lot of deaths, and there was a large movement to get more diver's into cave and tech environments, with very questionable training. The "war" was the wkpp against the poster boy offenders, those seen as pushing agendas likely to cause the most stupidities and deaths. I saw this first hand, and know for a fact this was not rhetoric. It was diver deaths that got George pissed. That was the motivation on the wkpp side....on the other side, I'd have to guess, but I would think either money, glory, or ego, all absent of appropriate concern for the lives in question.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Don't other agencies do the same thing?

It was my understanding, for example, that you needed to be an NSS-CDS member to dive at Cow.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Not the same thing. You don't have to be trained by the NSS-CDS, you only have to have the qualifications (full cave trained/certified) and be a member of the grotto to get access (yes, the CDS is technically a grotto, the largest one belonging to the NSS). If you meet those requirements, stop at Dive Outpost or Cave Excursions, fill out and sign the waiver, and go dive.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

... but I would think either money, glory, or ego, all absent of appropriate concern for the lives in question.

I bet people from both sides could use that line interchangably.

Neither could truthfully claim it is fact though

 

[ucfdiver]

Not the same thing. You don't have to be trained by the NSS-CDS, you only have to have the qualifications (full cave trained/certified) and be a member of the grotto to get access (yes, the CDS is technically a grotto, the largest one belonging to the NSS). If you meet those requirements, stop at Dive Outpost or Cave Excursions, fill out and sign the waiver, and go dive.

You don't have to be GUE trained to participate in the WKPP, either.

My original thread actually included his name, but I didn't/don't think he was trying to make a name for himself at all - most didn't know who he was until he hit the news reports as a dead diver.

Before that, I can think of maybe Ron Simmons in 2005?

Steve Berman in 2001?

Which IMO just goes to backup my point, explorers aren't dying all over the US from pushing cave on the regular basis.

I think Berman passed away trying to map too much cave for one trip, not pushing EOL. Ron was exploring, so I think that could be counted as an EOL push. I don't think Fyvie wanted a name for himself, all of his efforts appear to be internal motives.

Sad part for Fyvie is that I've been to (and past) his EOL on OC without a setup dive and many have been beyond it the same way. It's sad that he paid the price when the gear that failed wasn't even needed

Solo dives and complacency seem to be the trend these days, I don't think EOL chasing has caused many deaths in recent years.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

You don't have to be GUE trained to participate in the WKPP, either.

What about to dive for the WKPP?

I think Berman passed away trying to map too much cave for one trip, not pushing EOL. Ron was exploring, so I think that could be counted as an EOL push. I don't think Fyvie wanted a name for himself, all of his efforts appear to be internal motives.

Sad part for Fyvie is that I've been to (and past) his EOL on OC without a setup dive and many have been beyond it the same way. It's sad that he paid the price when the gear that failed wasn't even needed

Solo dives and complacency seem to be the trend these days, I don't think EOL chasing has caused many deaths in recent years.

I'll concede to you helping to make my point on that issue

 

[ucfdiver]

What about to dive for the WKPP?

I'm aware of a few diving without GUE training. I'd be willing to bet if you talked to Casey and your goals matched the organizations that you could be in the water within a reasonable time frame.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I'm aware of a few diving without GUE training. I'd be willing to bet if you talked to Casey and your goals matched the organizations that you could be in the water within a reasonable time frame.

I doubt it, but thats for neither of us to decide really.




Its no secret that I just want to dive for fun, thats not really their mission. That doesn't change the fact that I should be allowed to have my fun on state owned, public property.

I don't want to be part of the WKPP, and I don't want to get in the way of their mission. I believe the two can exist(recreational and their 'science' diving) together. I don't want the WKPP to prevent me from my fun. I'm not convinced they're not trying to prevent my fun.

 

[danvolker]

I bet people from both sides could use that line interchangably.

Neither could truthfully claim it is fact though

This would show you really don't know anything about the WKPP , then or now.
And, specifically what I was referring to regarding George behaviors....