GUE/DIR/WKPP vs the world?
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PfcAJ
Contributor
Lots of hearsay in that one, Mat.
Crush
Contributor
lamont
Contributor
ucfdiver
Contributor
So prove it. Go push EOL at caves where WKPP members hold it currently while maintaining a near flawless safety record. Cathedral EOL is wide open for you. WKPP holds (one of the) EOL at Manatee, go tag that. Some Western leon sinks are open to the public, go find a tunnel they missed. Spring Creek has very little exploration currently done to it, go extend WKPP's line there.
When you've done that, talk to the state and show where you've had more success than the WKPP. Don't forget that the WKPP didn't start their efforts at Wakulla, they had developed an impressive record elsewhere in the region.
GUE's website will give you most of the reports you want. They don't report on every dive, lots of it wouldn't be interesting to the public. I believe at this time, only GUE c2 divers with a trimix rating can join the WKPP (and dive) without a sponsor. If *anyone* wants to dive the WKPP, it's currently possible to join so long as you follow a set of reasonable and proven safety standards. You'll find most people aren't willing to put the effort into joining.
Wakulla is so far away from the caves you're being "trained" for it's not even relevant. No one walks away from a trimix or full cave class with the ability to do the scientific dives the state is asking the WKPP to do.So even though my instructor has been diving caves since the 70's and has been part of many body recoveries and explorations/mappings of new caves, hes not qualified to train me to dive safely?
GUE has much tighter quality control than any other agency currently out there. Notice how you see the saying "it's about the instructor" in the tech diving forum, but rarely in reference to GUE?
Let's remember that permit only sites aren't unique to GUE/WKPP. These sites are also permit only:
- Rose Creek
- Jug Hole (year round access with permit)
- M2 Blue
- Madison (scooter use)
- Rock Springs
- Wekiva Springs
- Weeki Wachee
- 5 Hole
- Line Eater Spring
- Suwanacooche Cave
- Oleno State Park - Old Belamy System
I think that's what people forget. From what I heard (directly from previous WKPP director, George Irvine), they would lease land that no one else would care to lease with the terms that they got access to the sinks. I think the public seems to believe this is some sort of state sponsored research project, when these guys are dumping their own $$$ into it week in and out.
Finally, let's remember that GUE folks can't get in Dipolar's either because they're excluded from the list of accepted certification agencies. Back when Jackson Co sheriff's office issued diver entry to Jackson Blue, GUE wasn't listed in the official list of approved agencies either (albeit this was never enforced). It's all a 2 way streak.
ScubaFeenD
Contributor
I was referring to the NACD doing conservation and GUE not doing that.
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Don't other agencies do the same thing?
It was my understanding, for example, that you needed to be an NSS-CDS member to dive at Cow.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
It was my understanding, for example, that you needed to be an NSS-CDS member to dive at Cow.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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There are many old posts which portray the results of the "wrong" groups being given access to pristine but dangerous sites like Wakulla.....the WKPP versus Wakulla 2 projects were exactly on point for this.....
One of the "minor" problems was having a pristine area trampled and partially destroyed by a group like Stone's, as they decide they needed to haul massive structures and chambers to the dive site, and there mindset would not exclude major uprooting of the nature in the area, or the geologic and archeologic record, if this uprooting would be expedient --if it would help them achieve their goals..
The WKPP was well known for keeping the Wakalla area pristine.
Letting other groups in that had not PROVEN their abilitiy to operate without damage, or withouit deaths that would incur liabilities and possible future shut downs of the site for diving, remains a big issue.
Below are a few of the classic posts from the cavers list, dealing with the Stone project ( which should have never been allowed access--and due to their lack of safety proceedure, led to a death)
From: <kirvine@safari.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 06:00:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Stones saftey Standards
Mike, we don't do anything without another diver, and your point is welltaken, and as it turns out, you did the right thing. You had the ballsto walk abway while the rest of them cow towed so they could diveWakulla . You are the tough guy here, Mike, and we all know it.mike bruic wrote:> > I'm tired of getting my ass chewed out, and being called a traitor.> The fact(s) still remain, one of the many reasons I left the team was> that the laws that "Stone", and his so-called "safety committee"> promulgated are over rode in the end by Stone himself. Stone himself> said that "no rb diver will get into the water without a safety diver> with him". If you remember one of my post from "tails of the dark> side" you will recall my whining about a certain diver diving on a rb> in the basin "without" a safety diver (yet Stone over rode this).> Everyone told me this was harmless, and he did not need a safety> diver. If Dr. Kenndell had a safety diver (he was on a rb), do you> think they would have found him floating in 10' of water???> > Mike
BruicAnother...Organization: DIR
Subject: Re: another Wakulla problem?
The problem was that they got into the cave, looked around , saw theywere both breaking Rule Number One, and boogied. These wimps are themost pathetic I have EVER seen.I will say , however, that they are either completely ignorant of how arebreather works, or have a serious lack of concern for living to divethat thing. I have done some crazy stuff in my diving and in my life,but NOTHING that either JJ , Brent of I have ever done anywhere comparesto the insanity of diving an electronic rebreather in that situation, ordoing anything with Bill Stone calling the shots. The only way you can do what these people are doing is to not understandany of it.On the other hand, these dives are so easy for us, and so much fun. Sofar, all of our suporting gas divers have been further into Wakulla thanany of those guys, and they all did it on their first dive. Sue Harveywent in there with me, Landon and Sherwood ( the living Sherwood ) eachcarrying four bottles on a hundreds dive and went significatnly furtherthan any of these big time weenies has been yet, and the vis was tenfeet, not the 200 that these strokes are getting.24 days is more time that we had in the last three years there. Theseguys are a disgrace, an embarrassment, and an obvious example of whathappens when strokes reach critical mass - you get an explosion ofstrokery.Rather than see these idiots get kileld and prove me completely right, Iwould rather see it rain like hell and watch them sit there explainingwhy they could not run a mapper for 24 days, and then get kicked out forcomplete failure, and ruin all of their fun and have the commericalobjectives they are in there for backfire in their face.They have already proven that the Cis Lunar is the worst possible choiceof devices for cave diving ever, that their lights are a completefailure ( they all screwed up immediately), that they are too stupid tocopy my scooters, that they can't even build a metal scooter that makesany sense for 30 G's a pop, that their mapper is a complete joke, andthat even with all of the time, access, and money that they have beengiven, they are too stupid to get to first base.These guys "suck". I hope their sponsors are back-ending the money, asthat would mean they get none, and King gets the whole bill. By the way,when is that wimp going to dive?Jess Armantrout wrote:> > Something is up with the dive from the 24th> (http://www.wakulla2.org/Updates/dec24.htm). Looks like they had a> problem at the 210 rock where they sat for 18 minutes, started up, got> squared away, headed back down, then turned the dive when they got to> depth.> > Looks like another abort. Anybody got the scoop on this one, or was> Paul just laying more line in the entrance.> > Still loving it,> Troutone
more
From: <kirvine@safari.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 06:59:21 -0500
Subject: U Bet (their) Life - Wakulla competition to the death -"face the wheel"
I appreciate all of you maintaining radio silence as regards thehorrendous ignornance being displayed by the usdct with their scooterand other problems. I know all of you know what is wrong, but wait untilMarch 1 to discuss it. What really is telling about these guys is the willingness tocontinue to bet the lives of those kids on what they are clearly tooinexperienced to understand. I think now everyone can see why there areno US cave divers on the "US" dct. I have scooters that burn for hours that have never been repaired inseven years of diving. We all know that electric motors are continuousduty. We also all know from high school physics just how pitifullystupid the concept of "helium cooling" or fanning an enclosed motor is -this is how a convection oven works. Remember the question about openingyour refrigerator door to cool the house? PhD in WHAT? The other thing that is obvious is the what we have here is aCompetition To The Death in cave diving. Notice that there is no mappingbeing done anymore, and that the areas of the cave these guys arepounding on is not being recorded at all. I do have a complete wall mapgoing out 18,000 feet, but with the vis like it is now these guys cannot even see the walls. All they are doing is following our lines tryingto prove something until something goes even more wrong than it hasalready. All this and they have merely gone where we went on opencircuit in two dives, not two months. After getting into Wakulla to make an "accurate map", it turns outthat the survey I did is dead ACCURATE based on their cave radiofindings. I had that tunnel under the road to Cherokee, and theyconfirmed this. So much for our "compass and string" and our "littlepiker weekends". Notice they do not see any tunnels that are not on my map or not t'din. There are over 25,000 feet of passage for which I never released thedata - they obviously seemed to disappear. They did find the other twotunnels that go to Cherokee from A , but they looped back into a circleand missed the way on there for some reason, probably the bad vis causedthem to miss the jumps - those tunnels are the absolute worst nightmaresin cave diving, as they problably found out, and as one of them alludedto when he turned back at a restricion - actually a good call on hispart. When I was surveying that restriction the whole tunnel collapsedon me with JJ and Brent on the inbound side. I held still and Brentcleared the debris off of me and we continued on, but what a mess thatwas. I had to keep moving forward to read my instruments. I also see that when these guys did find a tunnel to put line in ( BTunnel) in the clear water, they did not survey it. I suppose theyexpect me to go do that? No chance. That thing is like the area behindthe Hinkel with white walls at 285 feet - no thanks. We reeled back outof it after we had to push our scooters ahead of us a couple of times,but we did that one an a triple stage open circuit. In fact, we left ourlast stage bottle right there to get through one spot. I am concerned that these guys are going to follow that line out there(the conduit) in bad vis, have scooter and other problems, and not getback out. They do not understand how long it takes when you have to towa diver, or how fast the gas goes on open circuit when you have to dragbottles. You can not get out without strong scooters, that is why we useso many. This potential for death is a real shame since as you all know andwitnessed, Brent, JJ and I did that dive easily in one shot with onesetup that was also an exploration dive. We ran that one from the doorin six hours. For us and the team, this is SOP - no big deal. We havethe contingenices accounted for ( we know what it takes to get out), asyou can see by reading the story of those events. There is nothing toprove here worth dying for, and what they already have proven to theWorld is how long , how much money, and how much wasted effort it takesto "compete" with what the WKPP can do in one day with its provenmethods and teamwork. Yes there are other ways to do things, and theseguys have sure proven that. I am also concernd about the physical beating these people are takingdoing the wrong deco. They must have smoked lungs by now, and permanentlung and bone damage. It will take months of extemely expensive HumanGrowth Hormone treatment to get any relief from that damage, if at all.Those treatments cost over $4000 per effort, and insurance will not payfor it at all. In addition, the battery of tests that must be taken todo this are prohibitive, and if there is any sign of any predispositionto cancer, they will not give the treatment, especially to women. Thealternative is lifetime of shortness of breath and emphasema-likeconditions. I will bet that none of them can breathe properly right now.They are probaly all coughing constnatly. As you know, we measure our vital capacity by running and swimming timesthe next day, and have figured out how to beat that problem before ithappens. Do not discuss how we decompress with anyone but Hamilton untilMar 1, and continue to not discuss scooters , lights, rigging oranything else until then. You can see they are perfoming superfical badcopies of everythign we do, and it is not working. Look at how long ittakes to do everything. We can talk about it in one month. Let's hopethat this competition does not result in those kids getting killed. I do appreaciate all of the WKPP guys worldwide keeping quiet - I knowthe temptation is overwhelming, but wait one month. It is not ourresponsiblity if they keep sending kids out there on faulty equipment -they KNOW it is faulty. The State can see they are no longer mapping -it is not our problem, it is theirs. If they want to run a their ownThunderdome, Autie would be proud. They know the rules, "break a deal,face the wheel", and they are breaking the deal now.
One of the "minor" problems was having a pristine area trampled and partially destroyed by a group like Stone's, as they decide they needed to haul massive structures and chambers to the dive site, and there mindset would not exclude major uprooting of the nature in the area, or the geologic and archeologic record, if this uprooting would be expedient --if it would help them achieve their goals..
The WKPP was well known for keeping the Wakalla area pristine.
Letting other groups in that had not PROVEN their abilitiy to operate without damage, or withouit deaths that would incur liabilities and possible future shut downs of the site for diving, remains a big issue.
Below are a few of the classic posts from the cavers list, dealing with the Stone project ( which should have never been allowed access--and due to their lack of safety proceedure, led to a death)
From: <kirvine@safari.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 06:00:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Stones saftey Standards
Mike, we don't do anything without another diver, and your point is welltaken, and as it turns out, you did the right thing. You had the ballsto walk abway while the rest of them cow towed so they could diveWakulla . You are the tough guy here, Mike, and we all know it.mike bruic wrote:> > I'm tired of getting my ass chewed out, and being called a traitor.> The fact(s) still remain, one of the many reasons I left the team was> that the laws that "Stone", and his so-called "safety committee"> promulgated are over rode in the end by Stone himself. Stone himself> said that "no rb diver will get into the water without a safety diver> with him". If you remember one of my post from "tails of the dark> side" you will recall my whining about a certain diver diving on a rb> in the basin "without" a safety diver (yet Stone over rode this).> Everyone told me this was harmless, and he did not need a safety> diver. If Dr. Kenndell had a safety diver (he was on a rb), do you> think they would have found him floating in 10' of water???> > Mike
BruicAnother...Organization: DIR
Subject: Re: another Wakulla problem?
The problem was that they got into the cave, looked around , saw theywere both breaking Rule Number One, and boogied. These wimps are themost pathetic I have EVER seen.I will say , however, that they are either completely ignorant of how arebreather works, or have a serious lack of concern for living to divethat thing. I have done some crazy stuff in my diving and in my life,but NOTHING that either JJ , Brent of I have ever done anywhere comparesto the insanity of diving an electronic rebreather in that situation, ordoing anything with Bill Stone calling the shots. The only way you can do what these people are doing is to not understandany of it.On the other hand, these dives are so easy for us, and so much fun. Sofar, all of our suporting gas divers have been further into Wakulla thanany of those guys, and they all did it on their first dive. Sue Harveywent in there with me, Landon and Sherwood ( the living Sherwood ) eachcarrying four bottles on a hundreds dive and went significatnly furtherthan any of these big time weenies has been yet, and the vis was tenfeet, not the 200 that these strokes are getting.24 days is more time that we had in the last three years there. Theseguys are a disgrace, an embarrassment, and an obvious example of whathappens when strokes reach critical mass - you get an explosion ofstrokery.Rather than see these idiots get kileld and prove me completely right, Iwould rather see it rain like hell and watch them sit there explainingwhy they could not run a mapper for 24 days, and then get kicked out forcomplete failure, and ruin all of their fun and have the commericalobjectives they are in there for backfire in their face.They have already proven that the Cis Lunar is the worst possible choiceof devices for cave diving ever, that their lights are a completefailure ( they all screwed up immediately), that they are too stupid tocopy my scooters, that they can't even build a metal scooter that makesany sense for 30 G's a pop, that their mapper is a complete joke, andthat even with all of the time, access, and money that they have beengiven, they are too stupid to get to first base.These guys "suck". I hope their sponsors are back-ending the money, asthat would mean they get none, and King gets the whole bill. By the way,when is that wimp going to dive?Jess Armantrout wrote:> > Something is up with the dive from the 24th> (http://www.wakulla2.org/Updates/dec24.htm). Looks like they had a> problem at the 210 rock where they sat for 18 minutes, started up, got> squared away, headed back down, then turned the dive when they got to> depth.> > Looks like another abort. Anybody got the scoop on this one, or was> Paul just laying more line in the entrance.> > Still loving it,> Troutone
more
From: <kirvine@safari.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 06:59:21 -0500
Subject: U Bet (their) Life - Wakulla competition to the death -"face the wheel"
I appreciate all of you maintaining radio silence as regards thehorrendous ignornance being displayed by the usdct with their scooterand other problems. I know all of you know what is wrong, but wait untilMarch 1 to discuss it. What really is telling about these guys is the willingness tocontinue to bet the lives of those kids on what they are clearly tooinexperienced to understand. I think now everyone can see why there areno US cave divers on the "US" dct. I have scooters that burn for hours that have never been repaired inseven years of diving. We all know that electric motors are continuousduty. We also all know from high school physics just how pitifullystupid the concept of "helium cooling" or fanning an enclosed motor is -this is how a convection oven works. Remember the question about openingyour refrigerator door to cool the house? PhD in WHAT? The other thing that is obvious is the what we have here is aCompetition To The Death in cave diving. Notice that there is no mappingbeing done anymore, and that the areas of the cave these guys arepounding on is not being recorded at all. I do have a complete wall mapgoing out 18,000 feet, but with the vis like it is now these guys cannot even see the walls. All they are doing is following our lines tryingto prove something until something goes even more wrong than it hasalready. All this and they have merely gone where we went on opencircuit in two dives, not two months. After getting into Wakulla to make an "accurate map", it turns outthat the survey I did is dead ACCURATE based on their cave radiofindings. I had that tunnel under the road to Cherokee, and theyconfirmed this. So much for our "compass and string" and our "littlepiker weekends". Notice they do not see any tunnels that are not on my map or not t'din. There are over 25,000 feet of passage for which I never released thedata - they obviously seemed to disappear. They did find the other twotunnels that go to Cherokee from A , but they looped back into a circleand missed the way on there for some reason, probably the bad vis causedthem to miss the jumps - those tunnels are the absolute worst nightmaresin cave diving, as they problably found out, and as one of them alludedto when he turned back at a restricion - actually a good call on hispart. When I was surveying that restriction the whole tunnel collapsedon me with JJ and Brent on the inbound side. I held still and Brentcleared the debris off of me and we continued on, but what a mess thatwas. I had to keep moving forward to read my instruments. I also see that when these guys did find a tunnel to put line in ( BTunnel) in the clear water, they did not survey it. I suppose theyexpect me to go do that? No chance. That thing is like the area behindthe Hinkel with white walls at 285 feet - no thanks. We reeled back outof it after we had to push our scooters ahead of us a couple of times,but we did that one an a triple stage open circuit. In fact, we left ourlast stage bottle right there to get through one spot. I am concerned that these guys are going to follow that line out there(the conduit) in bad vis, have scooter and other problems, and not getback out. They do not understand how long it takes when you have to towa diver, or how fast the gas goes on open circuit when you have to dragbottles. You can not get out without strong scooters, that is why we useso many. This potential for death is a real shame since as you all know andwitnessed, Brent, JJ and I did that dive easily in one shot with onesetup that was also an exploration dive. We ran that one from the doorin six hours. For us and the team, this is SOP - no big deal. We havethe contingenices accounted for ( we know what it takes to get out), asyou can see by reading the story of those events. There is nothing toprove here worth dying for, and what they already have proven to theWorld is how long , how much money, and how much wasted effort it takesto "compete" with what the WKPP can do in one day with its provenmethods and teamwork. Yes there are other ways to do things, and theseguys have sure proven that. I am also concernd about the physical beating these people are takingdoing the wrong deco. They must have smoked lungs by now, and permanentlung and bone damage. It will take months of extemely expensive HumanGrowth Hormone treatment to get any relief from that damage, if at all.Those treatments cost over $4000 per effort, and insurance will not payfor it at all. In addition, the battery of tests that must be taken todo this are prohibitive, and if there is any sign of any predispositionto cancer, they will not give the treatment, especially to women. Thealternative is lifetime of shortness of breath and emphasema-likeconditions. I will bet that none of them can breathe properly right now.They are probaly all coughing constnatly. As you know, we measure our vital capacity by running and swimming timesthe next day, and have figured out how to beat that problem before ithappens. Do not discuss how we decompress with anyone but Hamilton untilMar 1, and continue to not discuss scooters , lights, rigging oranything else until then. You can see they are perfoming superfical badcopies of everythign we do, and it is not working. Look at how long ittakes to do everything. We can talk about it in one month. Let's hopethat this competition does not result in those kids getting killed. I do appreaciate all of the WKPP guys worldwide keeping quiet - I knowthe temptation is overwhelming, but wait one month. It is not ourresponsiblity if they keep sending kids out there on faulty equipment -they KNOW it is faulty. The State can see they are no longer mapping -it is not our problem, it is theirs. If they want to run a their ownThunderdome, Autie would be proud. They know the rules, "break a deal,face the wheel", and they are breaking the deal now.
SuPrBuGmAn
Contributor
They are quite capable of doing their own bitching though, see the previous post for examples.
ucfdiver
Contributor
I think opening Wakulla for recreational diving is a bit of a wet dream right now.
Do i think there are divers qualified to dive it? Yes (but they're laying line elsewhere and not really worrying with Wakulla)
Do I think it's a top priority when so many other more reasonable sites are closed? No.
Time will tell.
Edit- I *do* think these sites should be opened, and I'm only commenting on prioritizing the efforts.
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