GUE/DIR/WKPP vs the world?

[Crush]

Desmond Morris, in The Human Zoo (Cape, 1969; Corgi, 1971) gives "ten golden rules" for "all leaders, from baboons to modern presidents and prime ministers." They are [emphasis added]:

1. You must clearly display the trappings, postures and gestures of dominance.
2. In moments of active rivalry you must threaten your subordinates aggressively.
3. In moments of physical challenge you (or your delegates) must be able forcibly to overpower your subordinates.
4. If a challenge involves brain rather than brawn you must be able to outwit your subordinates.
5. You must suppress squabbles that break out between your subordinates.
6. You must reward your immediate subordinates by permitting them to enjoy the benefits of their high ranks.
7. You must protect the weaker members of the group from undue persecution.
8. You must make decisions concerning the social activities of your group.
9. You must reassure your extreme subordinates from time to time.
10. You must take the initiative in repelling threats or attacks arising from outside your group.

 

[KaizerWilhelm]

This should be good...

 

[sontek]

The WKPP has a scientific permit from the state to dive certain sites. Other groups have obtained scientific permits to dive those same sites and others. You can certainly dive those sites if you can pool together the personnel and resources necessary to conduct the dives they're doing, AND prove to the state you have done so.

Thanks for the clarification, that makes a lot more sense. So not *everyone* who has been trained GUE is allowed to just wander into these closed caves, just the ones needed on the scientific dive teams?

Do they publish their dive reports/research of these caves somewhere?

 

[sontek]

OK, I am not in that community, but I'd love to know what precisely you were told, and by whom. I realize that you may not want to or be able to respond in the open, but I am still curious.

The conversation that brought this up was not a negative one towards any organization. It was just mentioned that they had been closing sites and it got me curious of why an organization would want to close caves on people.

 

[AZTEK DIVER]

The conversation that brought this up was not a negative one towards any organization. It was just mentioned that they had been closing sites and it got me curious of why an organization would want to close caves on people.

Your source is misinformed, not GUE or any other agency or private group has the power to open or close sites owned by the state. There's a group that has worked very hard to get some of the closed sites open in N. Florida and has had some success, but it's not an easy task.

 

[TSandM]

The WKPP has permits to do scientific diving work in Wakulla Springs. The spring is not open to general, recreational diving. It was, in fact, closed entirely to diving for some time. Not all GUE-trained divers can dive Wakulla; you must be part of the WKPP project, and the majority of divers involved in the project don't dive, or don't do very significant dives. (Setup, cleanup and support work.) The WKPP's access to a rather unusual (extremely deep and extensive) cave is resented by some people in Florida. It is a hot-button topic.

 

[_Slacker_]

The WKPP's access to a rather unusual (extremely deep and extensive) cave is resented by some people in Florida. It is a hot-button topic.

While Wakulla is the big name that everyone knows, there are many others in the area. On public lands caves they do have a permit to dive. There are some on private lands that they have permission to dive as well that other divers do not. There is a lot of history and diver politics which makes it a hot topic. What generally occurred over the years is that caves were either already closed or got closed. In today's nanny society, it seems very difficult to reverse that process. Some people have put in lots of work to get this reversed for everyone. Over time some of the access at sites has changed but it is a very slow process.

Wakulla is way down on my list of caves that are closed that I would like to dive. They aren't all that deep and/or extensive, but they are all closed. I understand the point of view that if this highly visible cave's access could be changed others might follow, but I'd prefer to let this one go and open others that have less political visibility and in my opinion better are dives. The type of dive a typical diver (highly experienced, not trying to say that any restrictions are unreasonable, such as trimix and number of dives) would make at Wakulla are actually not that uncommon in other caves around the state. The difference is the names of these sites are not as highly publicized and the divers are quietly making their dives without incident.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Thanks for the clarification, that makes a lot more sense. So not *everyone* who has been trained GUE is allowed to just wander into these closed caves, just the ones needed on the scientific dive teams?

Do they publish their dive reports/research of these caves somewhere?

Exactly. First, after you've received the appropriate level of training, you have to be recommended to become part of the project. Then you have to work for a couple years as surface support before you'll even be allowed in the water. Then you become habitat support (transport food, water, etc to the decompression habitats). Very few divers get to do much more than that. And even the people who are part of the project can only dive the sites when the entire group is there. You can't just wake up one day and decide you want to go dive Wakulla.

I'm not sure who told you GUE is trying to close sites, but that person is completely misinformed. I'd be hesitant to listen to anything else that person has to say.

WKPP activities

Project updates

 

[sontek]

Exactly. First, after you've received the appropriate level of training, you have to be recommended to become part of the project. Then you have to work for a couple years as surface support before you'll even be allowed in the water. Then you become habitat support (transport food, water, etc to the decompression habitats). Very few divers get to do much more than that. And even the people who are part of the project can only dive the sites when the entire group is there. You can't just wake up one day and decide you want to go dive Wakulla.

WKPP activities

Project updates

Thanks! They sound like they have a great operation! Those links you provided haven't been updated in a few years.

I'm not sure who told you GUE is trying to close sites, but that person is completely misinformed. I'd be hesitant to listen to anything else that person has to say.
L]

Thats why I came here to ask, wanted to make sure I was getting my facts straight

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I was told the WKPP/GUE/DIR guys have been trying to close/privatize certain caves so that only their members may dive them.

WKPP surely would like to have exclusive access to sites they are working in. We've had landowners tell us the WKPP had requested it(exclusivity), and luckily were denied. So this particular stretch remains open to a larger subset of divers - basically anyone who asks permission or is part of one of the groups who have already gained permission.

There was a Wakulla Spring CSO meeting just recently and opening Wakulla Springs to diving was one of the key issues. The CSO was against it, mostly being fed with innaccurate BS excuses(different issue). One of the CSO members present was with the FSU archeology dept and said that the WKPP wouldn't help them with their research if the spot was open to other divers. This led this particular CSO member to not want other divers allowed in Wakulla Spring(despite the fact that he could easily have several other organizations step up to helping their research).

Looking into the past, and you can surely-easily find more of the same - I just don't know the details.

The WKPP has done some amazing dives with a great safety record, but they would go a long way to help keep the viewpoints, that started this thread(and many many others), by just doing more to help the overall dive community. This ain't gonna happen because the higher ups don't give a damned about everyone else.

Thanks for the clarification, that makes a lot more sense. So not *everyone* who has been trained GUE is allowed to just wander into these closed caves, just the ones needed on the scientific dive teams?

Do they publish their dive reports/research of these caves somewhere?

The WKPP is the "scientific" team you are reffering to in the Wakulla area. Not all GUE members are part of it, so not all GUE members can dive the caves they have access to. You have to be GUE trained to be a part of the WKPP.

Everything the WKPP researches under the state permit should be accessible publicly. I think the park is required to show any research being done there? I believe thats part of the state permiting.

...but some people need saving from themselves like the gentelman in vortex if he is in there( dought it)...

He wasn't a cave diver.

The WKPP's access to a rather unusual (extremely deep and extensive) cave is resented by some people in Florida. It is a hot-button topic.

Just because the cave goes as deep as 350' and gets extensive doesn't mean a person has to go that deep, or do an extensive dive. Wakulla and many other springs and sinkholes are on public state park(public) lands. There are equally as deep(and deeper) and equally as extensive cave systems within Florida.

There are even publicly accessible windows into the Wakulla-Leon system, yet people aren't kacking themselves on the daily or even yearly basis.