GUE Cave Training?

[nimoh]

DIR evolves when it needs to. For 99% of diving, nothing needs to be changed. It doesn't need to conform to misguided industry trends. Especially if those trends are without value. If you genuinely need a rebreather, do it. If you genuinely need SM to do your dives, do it. If not, then you're playing dress up.

You really don't have a clue, do you...? Even the WKPP used SCCRs (semi-closed circuit rebreathers) for the Wakulla project.

they had a genuine need for rebreathers in Wakulla Springs, and they did it. What exactly does PfcAJ not have a clue about?

 

[TSandM]

I choose GUE because I like the fact that the system is laid out for me, it works in multiple environments and I just go diving.

The proprietor of the then-GUE-affiliated shop here in Seattle said to me, a long time ago, "DIR is just a very simple way to dive." Looking back, I see that he was completely right.

 

[vicp]

We generally don't lose our buddies, or break the dive plan, or run out of gas, or get horribly lost, or crash into people or silt out photographs. We DO make very good instabuddies. We don't very often attempt dives for which we are unprepared or inadequately trained or skilled. We use a pretty extensive set of safety protocols to avoid getting into trouble. I think all those things are pretty nice things...

Those are great things. It would be great to have a group of dive buddies at that level. As it is, good cave dive partners are not easy to find and in many cases need to be developed. Unfortunately, in our part of the world, there seems to be a divide between the GUE/DIR camp and the "others." Compare going into Extreme Exposure vs. Cave Country Dive Shop in High Springs, pricing, rigidity of requirements (no sidemount, configuration nazis, etc.), certificate expiration, participation or non-participation in "cave country" community events, etc. These all tend to reflect negatively on GUE here. I keep hearing of pending changes, which I hope will come about. Without these changes, GUE will start becoming rarer than the back mounted diver in FL's "cave country," where it started. Maybe it's different in the PNW. I certainly hope so. I would certainly support and join an organization that that promotes high standards, and is more progressive and inclusive than GUE is right now (might even support renewable certs if I believed in the organization).

I will someday be forced into going sidemount for my cave diving, simply because I'm getting to be a little old lady, but the day I do it, I will really miss being a part of the community I've dived in for the last seven years.

Why?? Why would you have to give up your community if you started to side mount.

I don't know if you have tried side mounting (I thought one of your posts said you tried it and found it exhilarating - but it may have been someone else), but if not, you really should. It is truly exhilarating and liberating - you truly feel like there is no "monkey" on your back. You may even convince members of your community to do the same. If they were to exclude you due to side mounting, maybe they are not the close community you think they are.

We dive mixed groups all the time (BM doubles, SM, CCR), except BM doubles are getting scarcer all the time (try to sell some BM gear in cave country). The safety protocols maybe be a little different, but it is easily doable.

 

[rjack321]

I will someday be forced into going sidemount for my cave diving, simply because I'm getting to be a little old lady, but the day I do it, I will really miss being a part of the community I've dived in for the last seven years.

It really doesn't change much. I dive sidemount - sometimes. My buddies haven't ditched me.

If people want to dive with you they will, if they are looking for an excuse not to, gear is really really "shallow".

 

[vicp]

they had a genuine need for rebreathers in Wakulla Springs, and they did it. What exactly does PfcAJ not have a clue about?

If you can't figure that one out, you don't either...

 

[rjack321]

If you can't figure that one out, you don't either...

vicp if you don't have anything constructive to say STFU

 

[nimoh]

If you can't figure that one out, you don't either...

well, I guess then I don't have a clue. Would you explain it to me?

I am not trying to be disingenuous, but just don't see what you thought was wrong about PfcAJ's post?

 

[JamesK]

I will someday be forced into going sidemount for my cave diving, simply because I'm getting to be a little old lady, but the day I do it, I will really miss being a part of the community I've dived in for the last seven years.

No you won't. Well, you will not have to give up the open minded thinking ones. I still dive with my old DIR friends. I still dive with new GUE divers. As you know, not every DIR diver has to dive every dive DIR.

Side note time.

I think GUE is a phenomenal agency, and they produce highly skilled divers. I am a big fan of the entire DIR system and philosophy. I was never GUE trained, only GUE mentored, but I never turned down a dive with a nonDIR diver unless I truly felt them unsafe. Now with me diving mainly sidemount, I expect the same from others. The people that do not have the same experience that I do, that say they will not dive with me because I am sidemount, are the people I would not want to dive with even if I pulled out my backmount gear. I am not speaking of 3 hour dives right off the bat. I am speaking of shakedown dives to at to know that diver first.

Another note. This thread got way off topic. I apologize for taking it further.

 

[vicp]

well, I guess then I don't have a clue. Would you explain it to me?

I am not trying to be disingenuous, but just don't see what you thought was wrong about PfcAJ's post?

Sorry to be short. I did take you to be disingenuous. Maybe it was from reading PfcAJ's numerous, shall we say, "insightful" posts.

DIR evolves when it needs to... like when?

For 99% of diving, nothing needs to be changed... with that type of thinking we would all still be in the stone age. Where have you been? Cars, weapons, computers (including dive), hardware (all types), software, rebreathers, communications, social norms, etc. - all are changing.

WKPP used sCCRs becuse they needed to expand their range and endurance I suppose - and considered, are considering using full (e)CCRs. Most explorations now do this and stage bailout gases.

Side mount configurations are fast becoming the norm in "cave country" and I would suspect that a good amount of the GUE "inner-circle" and instructors use it, and not for just those 1% of dives where BM would not work.

When does this "trickle down" to us mere mortals or are we just supposed to be happy with simple a "do-it-all" (or is it "do-it-right") recipe.

I can't believe that I am actually replying to this!

...if you don't have anything constructive to say STFU

You mirror my sentiments exactly!

---------- Post added March 11th, 2013 at 07:09 PM ----------

No you won't. Well, you will not have to give up the open minded thinking ones. I still dive with my old DIR friends. I still dive with new GUE divers. As you know, not every DIR diver has to dive every dive DIR.

Side note time.

I think GUE is a phenomenal agency, and they produce highly skilled divers. I am a big fan of the entire DIR system and philosophy. I was never GUE trained, only GUE mentored, but I never turned down a dive with a nonDIR diver unless I truly felt them unsafe. Now with me diving mainly sidemount, I expect the same from others. The people that do not have the same experience that I do, that say they will not dive with me because I am sidemount, are the people I would not want to dive with even if I pulled out my backmount gear. I am not speaking of 3 hour dives right off the bat. I am speaking of shakedown dives to at to know that diver first.

Another note. This thread got way off topic. I apologize for taking it further.

I agree with James just about completely. I just feel that taking what GUE/DIR has built and taking it to the next level of technological development along with advances in team dynamics and non-exclusivity (non-elitist attitude) would be awesome. Aviation and the military do this all the time (I am/was part of both). Not doing so would eventually diminish the reputation and relevance of GUE/DIR.

Remember that Rome fell also (was it false pride?)

 

[PfcAJ]

You can see DIR evolve when it needs to all the time. Take a look over at the WKPP (which I have at least a little bit of a clue about) and you'll see new things. Stage rebreathers, new scooters, new protocols. Since you've been cave certified for all of 6 months, I'm sure you haven't been around to see much of it, vicp. But guess what? 99% of people are NOT doing those dives. They're going to Peacock for a swim. CCRs aren't needed in the WKP (yet, and might not be ever) as gas isn't the issue. SM isn't needed because the caves are (mostly) big. One of the GUE instructors in Mexico recently wrote an article about it in Quest. Pop on over to EE and pick up a copy, they won't even ask for your c-card, I promise.

The GUE philosophy is about standardization, skill, and teamwork. It doesn't matter what goes on in 'cave country', and what the configuration du-jour is. Wait, old school bungees? Trim pillow? Valves in or valves out? 1 long hose, 2 long hoses, or no long hoses? Backup lights ziptied to your helmet or in a fanny pouch? That kind of stuff DOESN'T work for us, we're too busy diving to futz with stuff like that over and over and learn a new teammates configuration peculiarities every time someone new shows up. What's happening in 'cave country' (aka a small swath of Florida between High Springs and Lauraville) is hardly the metric we use to gauge the merits of a change.

Btw, you're just as bad at creating this 'divide' when you bitch and moan about the 'other' dive shop. Go make some friends. You'd be surprised what doors open when you do. EE will fill your tanks even if they're not banded together, and I'm pretty sure gas pricing is the same (or damn close to it) as the other shops in the area. Branch out a little. Its good for you.