GUE Cave Training?

[TSandM]

I've been involved with GUE for seven years, and I've seen things evolve. They evolve slowly, when there is no true imperative for change, and very rapidly, when a strong reason is seen. For example, my original training was that there was no need to verify switches on and off stages, since stages were the same as backgas; after Jim Miller's accident, they instantly changed that teaching (which led to an embarrassing moment in a cave in MX, when my recently trained buddy waited very patiently for me to verify his stage pickup, when I had no intention of doing so ). The valve drill has changed, the S-drill has changed, the mnemonics taught to the divers have changed. When things need improving, they get improved. But change for its own sake is regarded very dubiously; Jarrod has said in print that the core value of the system is standardization, and when we breach that, we throw away a great many good things.

The leadership of the organization is constantly looking at possibilities -- when I went to the GUE conference this last fall, there was a fair amount of talk about the experimentation going on with CCRs. They are not unaware of the benefits they could offer, but since safety is an imperative, they haven't endorsed any CCR, because none has met their requirements for reliability and safety of operation. Similarly with sidemount -- they recognize that there are dives where backmount isn't optimal, but those dives are few. Backmounted doubles are so easy -- move a little weight here or there, and you're good to go.

It's not an organization set in stone. It's a conservative organization, which is reluctant to change a system that works very well, just because it has become fashionable to do so.

 

[JamesK]

Just having some fun with the red.

The GUE philosophy is about standardization, skill, and teamwork. It doesn't matter what goes on in 'cave country', and what the configuration du-jour is. Wait, old school bungees? YES Trim pillow?NO Valves in or valves out? IN 1 long hose, 2 long hoses, or no long hoses? TWO Backup lights ziptied to your helmet or in a fanny pouch? NO AND NO. ON YOUR HARNESS JUST LIKE IN BACKMOUNT That kind of stuff DOESN'T work for us, we're too busy diving to futz with stuff like that over and over and learn a new teammates configuration peculiarities every time someone new shows up. What's happening in 'cave country' (aka a small swath of Florida between High Springs and Lauraville) is hardly the metric we use to gauge the merits of a change. I agree completely with standardization on big dives and projects. Where DIR excels above all is this area. When dealing with multiple partners on any given dive, it is very nice being able to just jump in to a team and fit in. That is one reason that even in my sidemount rig, I try to keep everything as close as possible to my backmount rig. Same procedures, gear in the same places, s-drills, verifying gas, etc etc. The only difference really is where the tanks mount.

Btw, you're just as bad at creating this 'divide' when you bitch and moan about the 'other' dive shop. Go make some friends. You'd be surprised what doors open when you do. EE will fill your tanks even if they're not banded together, and I'm pretty sure gas pricing is the same (or damn close to it) as the other shops in the area. Branch out a little. Its good for you.

ABSOLUTELY! Both sides of the fence should and could learn from this last paragraph. Bravo!

 

[LiteHedded]

ee just had a swap meet with wayne from amigos iirc

 

[vicp]

ee just had a swap meet with wayne from amigos iirc

I believe the swap meet is the end of the month (3/30/13) - I may go as Kyle sounds like a stand-up guy.

BTW - did some more research with these results:

- DIR divers in person are said to be much nicer than the ones that post on the web - especially on Scubaboard - I'm sure TS&M (Lynne?) is excluded. The rudeness exhibited toward perceived "strokes" (non-DIR divers) by DIR zealots on the DIR SB forum is truly epic!!

- The base of GUE instructors worldwide seems healthy but not so in the US - about 20 listed (mostly FL and CA) and not all are active.

- SM seems to be used by quite frequently by GUE/DIR divers outside of the US, especially the UK. SM is discussed quite freely on their boards.

Main objections to SM in DIR circles seems to come from perceived "weaknesses" of using independent doubles (not really true - there are actually strengths, especially for solo) and OOA long hose deployment in team situations (also not true as I have trained as such). Yes, there is some extra gas management in switching regulators, but that is minor compared to the benefits of SM. The biggest obstacle may be just changing the mindset.

As I have said, I would probably be all over GUE/DIR if SM were actually incorporated and practiced to the standards of other GUE training. Due to not wanting to carry heavy doubles anymore (yes, I did pull my back at least once wrestling double 108s out of the car, into the water, and out), getting older, and truly enjoying the freedom of much easier trim and balance, I doubt that I will dive BM doubles much, if at all, again (maybe double up my steel 72s or LP85s occasionally - mission specific like on crowded boats in higher seas when not using singles, etc.).

My attitude is that 99% of all diving can be done in SM (not counting rebreathers), so only use BM when it is needed. There are a lot of people coming to this conclusion, especially in the "baby-boomer" generation of divers, which by the way has a lot of economic clout as well as increasing numbers.

Just for grins below is a link to one of the GUE/DIR "founding fathers" on the subject of DIR SM. Seems they use it quite a bit in the Bahamas and ALL WKPP Deco dives for "comfort and...getting out of the water...". After reading how they do it (including George's colorful syntax), I can understand why no sane DIR or "stroke" diver would do it the way they do. My "stroke" rig is definitely superior and more usable for the 99% of diving I do.

DIR Sidemount by George Irvine

 

[nimoh]

I believe the swap meet is the end of the month (3/30/13) - I may go as Kyle sounds like a stand-up guy.

BTW - did some more research with these results:

- DIR divers in person are said to be much nicer than the ones that post on the web - especially on Scubaboard - I'm sure TS&M (Lynne?) is excluded. The rudeness exhibited toward perceived "strokes" (non-DIR divers) by DIR zealots on the DIR SB forum is truly epic!!

- The base of GUE instructors worldwide seems healthy but not so in the US - about 20 listed (mostly FL and CA) and not all are active.

- SM seems to be used by quite frequently by GUE/DIR divers outside of the US, especially the UK. SM is discussed quite freely on their boards.

Main objections to SM in DIR circles seems to come from perceived "weaknesses" of using independent doubles (not really true - there are actually strengths, especially for solo) and OOA long hose deployment in team situations (also not true as I have trained as such). Yes, there is some extra gas management in switching regulators, but that is minor compared to the benefits of SM. The biggest obstacle may be just changing the mindset.

As I have said, I would probably be all over GUE/DIR if SM were actually incorporated and practiced to the standards of other GUE training. Due to not wanting to carry heavy doubles anymore (yes, I did pull my back at least once wrestling double 108s out of the car, into the water, and out), getting older, and truly enjoying the freedom of much easier trim and balance, I doubt that I will dive BM doubles much, if at all, again (maybe double up my steel 72s or LP85s occasionally - mission specific like on crowded boats in higher seas when not using singles, etc.).

My attitude is that 99% of all diving can be done in SM (not counting rebreathers), so only use BM when it is needed. There are a lot of people coming to this conclusion, especially in the "baby-boomer" generation of divers, which by the way has a lot of economic clout as well as increasing numbers.

Just for grins below is a link to one of the GUE/DIR "founding fathers" on the subject of DIR SM. Seems they use it quite a bit in the Bahamas and ALL WKPP Deco dives for "comfort and...getting out of the water...". After reading how they do it (including George's colorful syntax), I can understand why no sane DIR or "stroke" diver would do it the way they do. My "stroke" rig is definitely superior and more usable for the 99% of diving I do.

DIR Sidemount by George Irvine

I am a new GUE diver (finished Fundamentals last week), and like to think I am a nice guy to dive with in person (there are others that would agree with that). I also try to be nice in online forums, although I aspire to be as nice as Lynne

I think your statement "99% of all diving can be done in SM" is correct, but would add that "99% of all diving can be done in BM" is also correct. I am not anti-SM, even though I dive BM.

 

[Adobo]

No issue with maintaining skills at the highest possible levels and seeking professional help to do it. But being told by a non-regulatory (read non-government) agency (read GUE) that I need to recert/renew every 3 years ALL my highest ratings in category and pay them to do it is silly, ridiculous, and smacks of cultism.

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Try not to over think things.

If DIR/GUE does not adapt to the evolution in diving and sticks with the dated dogma developed years ago by some excellent and very talented divers they stand to become irrelevant, if they are not that already.

Change for the sake of change is stupid.

If I changed my approach to follow every fad, I would be using miflex hoses, a mask that has a built in computer, a remote transmitter so my buddy could track my gas consumption and a rebreather on recreational dives. Not to mention the latest in $80 dry snorkels.

No thanks. Show me the problem, then we can fix it. If it ain't broke, let's leave it alone.

 

[JamesK]

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Try not to over think things.



Change for the sake of change is stupid.

If I changed my approach to follow every fad, I would be using miflex hoses, a mask that has a built in computer, a remote transmitter so my buddy could track my gas consumption and a rebreather on recreational dives. Not to mention the latest in $80 dry snorkels.

No thanks. Show me the problem, then we can fix it. If it ain't broke, let's leave it alone.

However, just because something is not broke, does not mean it can't be improved upon. Not willing to make changes, or at least look at changes, breeds stagnation.

 

[TSandM]

But they DO look at changes! The guys who form the GUE training council are neither stupid nor are they willfully ignorant. I know for a fact (from having talked to some of them, and listened to presentations) that they are constantly playing with CCR technology, to see if anything seems to be solid enough to satisfy their need for safety. I'm quite sure the explosion in popularity of sidemount setups has not escaped them (and probably gave rise to Fred's article in Quest) and that if and when they see a NEED to incorporate this, it will be done.

UTD took a different attitude, and decided that people were going to dive different stuff, and they tried to come up with a core set of equipment configuration and procedures that would allow mixed teams to dive seamlessly. I guess only time will tell whether it works or not, but I'm not a fan of the manifold they use in sidemount.

Anybody reading some of these posts would think that JJ and Casey and Richard Lundgren and JP Bresser were jowly, grumpy old men, stubbornly sticking their heads in the sand and refusing to acknowledge progress. I've met all those people, and nothing could be further from the truth. They are bright, curious, articulate men doing some really amazing diving and exploration, and they're interested in anything related to diving. They may not adopt all of it, but they don't ignore it.

 

[Adobo]

However, just because something is not broke, does not mean it can't be improved upon. Not willing to make changes, or at least look at changes, breeds stagnation.

What makes you think they are not willing to even look at changes? Have you ever talked with Jarrod or David Rhea or Mark M about why they dive the way they do? I've talked with Jarrod about sidemount, CCRs and heck even miflex hoses. He always had reasonable answers to everything that we talked about. Even on topics that were outside of standard for GUE.

Even if you don't appreciate the conservative/pragmatic approach that GUE takes, I would at least hope that you recognize that its good for people to have an option like GUE. There are already plenty of organizations out there who are happy to sell you on the latest fads irrespective of the actually value.

 

[JamesK]

What makes you think they are not willing to even look at changes? Have you ever talked with Jarrod or David Rhea or Mark M about why they dive the way they do? I've talked with Jarrod about sidemount, CCRs and heck even miflex hoses. He always had reasonable answers to everything that we talked about. Even on topics that were outside of standard for GUE.

Even if you don't appreciate the conservative/pragmatic approach that GUE takes, I would at least hope that you recognize that its good for people to have an option like GUE. There are already plenty of organizations out there who are happy to sell you on the latest fads irrespective of the actually value.

You are either a) barking up the wrong tree, or b) misinterpreting my post. I am a supporter of GUE and the DIR system. I am also an ex GUE mentored and DIR dover. I never once said they are not open to change. I have talked to some of those same individuals about SM before. Some have seen my sidemount rig and agreed that I did a good job at incorporating DIR gear philosophy in to my rig.

I apologize if this post makes since, I am out celebrating with friend ms over margaritas and nachos.