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GUE Cave Training?
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JamesK
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OP
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PfcAJ
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This is a bunch of baloney.
Extra d rings to accomplish your dives? Come on. I think you'll be hard pressed to give me some examples of dives that can't be accomplished with the normal set of d-rings. And if you can't get your 104s up the ladder, hit the gym or take lighter tanks. Not hard.
DIR evolves when it needs to. For 99% of diving, nothing needs to be changed. It doesn't need to conform to misguided industry trends. Especially if those trends are without value. If you genuinely need a rebreather, do it. If you genuinely need SM to do your dives, do it. If not, then you're playing dress up.
Hard to imagine GUE being irrelevant or headed that way with new instructors joining the ranks, cave exploration going on in the US, Mexico, Bosnia, Germany, France, China, Philippines, Italy, Turkey (and I'm sure I missed a few), Project Baseline groups starting up worldwide, GUE affiliate groups and clubs forming, and new divers signing up for classes all the time. You must have a real neat definition of irrelevant.
ucfdiver
Contributor
Renewing a GUE cert costs less than buying a dive buddy dinner. By paying this fee, it grows the agency. I've dove with GUE divers from Florida, Boston, California, Mexico, Protugal, Sweeden, Canada and been able to hop in the water with almost no discussion predive about training differences. Personally, I would consider this network a HUGE plus to GUE divers. I've saved >$200/day (per person) because of GUE's DIR network and not having to hire a guide to cave dive in Mexico this last week.
LiteHedded
Contributor
vicp
Contributor
You really don't have a clue, do you...? Even the WKPP used SCCRs (semi-closed circuit rebreathers) for the Wakulla project.
I really appreciate your thoughtful and measured responses. Yes, I have moved on, as have many other people. If you find that that GUE meets your needs, then by all means continue to support it. My point was that DIR was very important to me at one point of my diving career but times change and things evolve. Organizations tend to get stuck in time and ideology, typically to serve the people in power (wanting to keep their positions or "status quo," and usually for financial gain). I have been through the same with the NACD, PSIA (professional ski instructors of America) and numerous other organizations that I have supported at one time or another. I believe it is the same with GUE.
I wasn't going to reply further to this post as it seems pointless to argue with zealots whatever their persuasion, but I wanted to give the OP some perspective on GUE as well as cave diving in FL. I know the OP's response to whether he would give up side mounting is:
When the OP gets to the Florida caves, he may find that BM doubles are going the way of the dinosaur. We don't often use boats (sometimes for the river caves) or have 5' seas at the caves.
I want to end by including 2 quotes from very accomplished dive professionals. The first, Trace Malinowski, is a GUE trained diver who is now with PSAI in a response to a Dan Volker post and the second is Kelly Jessup (NFSA), in reply to Trace's post.
Dan,
There is arrogance in DIR. But, this arrogance seems to come from the newly-minted GUE divers, those just diving within insular groups, or those far removed from the action. I've been invited to join the project twice now. I really want to say yes and make the type of contribution from a WKPP member that Casey wants, but I find that there are few DIR divers I enjoy being around - other than the inner circle.
I've always compared DIR to Christianity. Jarrod is like Jesus and always kind when delivering the philosophy to others and accepts that it isn't for everyone much like, "Him with an ear let him hear..." The original WKPP divers and GUE instructors were like the apostles and the early followers venturing around Wakulla and cave country like Galilee. George was like John the Baptist crying loudly in the wilderness. Andrew Georgitsis was like the apostle Paul traveling the world setting up various "churches," and Barry was like Judas Iscariot.
As a GUE diver, I believe in the philosophy just like I believe in Christianity. But, as a GUE diver, I'm deeply bothered by the way many DIR divers treat others outside the community and even inside the community as well. I'm not talking about those divers who truly are doing things that are absolutely unsafe and to be condemned across the board, but it bothers me when that attitude is directed toward the giants upon whose shoulders we stand today in the cave and tech communities. The zealotry borders on religion. For some, all they've known are split fins, a 3 day OW class, and then GUE-F and above. They are ignorant of many things and what isn't understood is condemned.
When pockets of DIR divers spring up like churches, many behaved badly and unlike Paul's epistles to the Romans, Corinthians, and Thessalonians, no one was really putting a stop to the problem. The blame seems to fall on George, but I think George contributed positively to DIR calling attention to the movement in a way that wasn't easy to ignore. He also did the dives. I really hate it when GUE divers who never met George place the albatross of blame on him for a "past attitude" that exists today - one they often display. I suspect the attitude of certain instructors was emulated. Worse, it really bothers me when they have no understanding of what it takes to get to the EOL in Wakulla. As you know, most would cry, "Uncle!" way before they can imagine. Cave diving at that level is not about trim, buoyancy, propulsion, looking good, or following the DIR rulebook. It's all that in ways, but the most important traits for a deep cave diver are respect for one's situation and courage to be comfortable in those circumstances to be an asset to the team and reliable. Many DIR divers live vicariously through the exploits of the organization and put down divers who've done dives that JJ would and does respect from other organizations.
Many carry the fight from the 90's to the windmills of today as if creating a jihad against other organizations will end them a spot in DIR heaven. GUE has trained so many divers who have taken the philosophy back to their leadership positions at other agencies or have become instructors with other agencies that the influence is amazing and has lifted the standard of a tech skill set industry wide. Some zealots believe that only GUE should teach any form of DIR diving, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle and good instructors who converted couldn't help, but convert their own students to at least the basic foundations of the philosophy.
Like Christianity and the Bible, you can't find all the answers to some current problems in the philosophy or the standards. You can however apply the philosophy and standards to trying to reason through situations.
As a GUE diver, I often criticize the philosophy and the organization in message boards simply because the "religious" zealotry is a bit scary. It's hard for me to embrace DIR that passionately because I see it as having added a tremendous amount to my diving, yet I've had lots of other training and experiences that I need to respect and honor. As a Christian, I believe that Judaism paved the way for my faith and that Muslims believe in the same God I do. I'd hate to exist in an all-DIR diving world as if the Crusades and the Inquisition and the Roman Catholic Church won over the world left us all in the parochialism of the Middle Ages. While DIR forms the foundation of my technical diving experiences, I welcome the Renaissance of improved technologies - especially CCR. The romantic in me also needs to be bad and get seduced into danger. I'm a Protestant in Christianity as much as I protest close-minded zealotry in diving and my part Native American heritage makes me yearn for a world also free of religion.
From reading the Bible, I don't think Christ ever intended to have a belief system that was based upon love and forgiveness bind the human heart as much as religion has done. I also don't think JJ ever intended a system based upon safety to somehow bind the minds of the practitioners. As a collective, we can stimulate an exploration Renaissance. But, with all of the DIR divers worldwide, the organization isn't promoting the opportunities to support one another and too many divers keep practicing for the next course rather than gaining experience and finding mentoring while promoting local causes. I suggested to Doug Mudry that GUE instructors should be encouraged to join the WKPP and oversee the training and practice of regional explorer groups better than is currently being done and be able to specifically train more divers far afield for specific tasks in Wakulla in their home waters so they can more seamlessly join and contribute to active diving operations. He explained to me that had been the idea, but hadn't really worked because too few divers had the experience to do the dives. They had skill, but little experience.
That brings us full circle. There are many talented cave divers with the experience, but they don't like many DIR divers due to the attitude. Yet, most cave divers truly like those involved in JJ's inner circle and have the greatest respect for the work. Also, the misinformation about being part of either the WKPP or GUE or both and what is or isn't acceptable on one's own time is confusing. The last I heard, Panos says it is okay to solo dive if you are certified by another agency on your own time because you are then their problem, not GUE's. I also heard Casey doesn't approve of solo diving on one's own time if you are with the WKPP. I was told that I could be a GUE instructor and teach solo through another agency, but then I was told that really would be frowned upon and that I wouldn't like being a GUE instructor with my personality because I like to play with new toys such as my Razor and Nomad.
Ultimately, many DIR divers believe that if you don't become a GUE instructor, it's because you aren't good enough. But, you and I know of people working for Halcyon who are gifted and experienced divers and instructors with other agencies that value their freedom on their own time.
I don't know what the current goals are for the project and I've heard that there is sometimes a shortage of members, but imagine what could happen if some of today's young cave diving talent could be brought on board? Casey wouldn't be short quality guys and if these guys could be supported by fledgling DIR students, newbies and DIR divers from across the globe? Imagine what could happen if the community of DIR divers could get along with others and themselves? We could really do some terrific stuff - especially worldwide conservation research. But, I guess that would be like trying to get the Christian community organized to help the world as well.
I could be part of the project as either a sponsored support diver or freediver and my girlfriend really is interested in supporting surface management because her career is as a production and stage manager. My entire hesitancy to be involved stems from having grown weary of the "DIR attitude" with which I've dealt since 1999. Other than that if I had the freedoms to dive under the certifications I have on my own time, I'd be totally reliable.
I think other cave divers and cave instructors with experience may feel the same way.
If the project begins to slow and doesn't warrant restricting access I think the state, the "Friends," and the WKPP should think about exchanging the right sort of information to allow access to all well-trained cave divers ... including the atheists.
and in reply to Trace
This pretty well sums it up for me also... (and Safe Diving to All of You)!
You know, there are dressage zealots, and there are diving zealots, and there are religious zealots -- and none of them are attractive, and all of them are annoying.
Trace has the vast majority of his exposure to DIR through the "inner circle" and a small group of NE divers. I think, if he spent some time on the West Coast (where almost everything is more relaxed that in the Northeast) he'd see a different phenomenon. Yes, there will ALWAYS be jerks, in DIR as in any other area of diving, or most anything else. But at least in the Seattle area, we don't tolerate them and they get counseled to mellow out as soon as their egregious behavior is recognized.
I don't view GUE as a religion. I view it as a diving system that works, and one that eliminates many of the common complaints I see people having here on SB on a regular basis. We generally don't lose our buddies, or break the dive plan, or run out of gas, or get horribly lost, or crash into people or silt out photographs. We DO make very good instabuddies. We don't very often attempt dives for which we are unprepared or inadequately trained or skilled. We use a pretty extensive set of safety protocols to avoid getting into trouble. I think all those things are pretty nice things, which is why I stay with the organization, and why I recommend it to others.
I will someday be forced into going sidemount for my cave diving, simply because I'm getting to be a little old lady, but the day I do it, I will really miss being a part of the community I've dived in for the last seven years.
Trace has the vast majority of his exposure to DIR through the "inner circle" and a small group of NE divers. I think, if he spent some time on the West Coast (where almost everything is more relaxed that in the Northeast) he'd see a different phenomenon. Yes, there will ALWAYS be jerks, in DIR as in any other area of diving, or most anything else. But at least in the Seattle area, we don't tolerate them and they get counseled to mellow out as soon as their egregious behavior is recognized.
I don't view GUE as a religion. I view it as a diving system that works, and one that eliminates many of the common complaints I see people having here on SB on a regular basis. We generally don't lose our buddies, or break the dive plan, or run out of gas, or get horribly lost, or crash into people or silt out photographs. We DO make very good instabuddies. We don't very often attempt dives for which we are unprepared or inadequately trained or skilled. We use a pretty extensive set of safety protocols to avoid getting into trouble. I think all those things are pretty nice things, which is why I stay with the organization, and why I recommend it to others.
I will someday be forced into going sidemount for my cave diving, simply because I'm getting to be a little old lady, but the day I do it, I will really miss being a part of the community I've dived in for the last seven years.
Cyprian
Contributor
Again, well said, Lynne......I have echoed your comment about the GUE system being a diving system and a system that works well on quite a few posts. And I will now point to this comment as needed for clarification.
I choose GUE because I like the fact that the system is laid out for me, it works in multiple environments and I just go diving. Some people like to tinker and play with their gear, etc. Some do not like to be standardized. I understand that and have no issue with it. Me, however, I like the standardization, the team environment.....and the list goes on and on. I have posted this elsewhere and will not clog up the thread with restatement.
Teller, you mentioned that you plan to take Fundies and then decide for yourself. IMHO, that's the best thing you can do, my friend. In the end, it's your choice right?
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