Government (GASP!) Regulation

[MikeFerrara]

I don't want the government to save me anymore. I demand the right to get myself killed anyway I see fit. If you let the gov in they will probably make us use seat belts.

If you think the FAA doesn't add cost check out the price of plane parts and service. Even If you do some work yourself you still pay a fortune to have someone else sign off on what you do. My father is the pilot in the family but when it comes to service he shure has to jump through some expensive hoops.

 

[MikeFerrara]

More people die in bathtubs than diving. The gov should stay out of diving until they fix that.

After they make it safe to take a bath they should work full time on making sure people can drive a car before getting on the road. After that....

 

[VTWarrenG]

Mike,

Good point on the tub deaths. In truth, cars kill more people than any kind of sport, even with extremely heavy government regulation.

You're right about the FAA making it hard on aircraft owners with regards to equipment and repair -- but that wasn't part of my analogy. I was making the parallel with FAA flight school only in regards to the tiered, structured, heirarchy of instructors. I don't advocate that the gov't force us to pay licensed wetsuit mechanics to patch our wetsuits! The parallelism breaks down at that point. You'll probably agree that aircraft machinery is much more complicated than diving machinery. You'll probably also agree that few pilots can maintain or repair their aircraft as well as divers can maintain and repair their dive gear. Airplanes != diving gear at all, but flight training and dive training are similar concepts.

- Warren

 

[MikeFerrara]

Checks and balances in the form of a tiered system might not be a bad idea. Some agencies already do that with instructors. But I don't think it should be govornment. We should do what needs to be done control our own destiny so speak.

 

[VTWarrenG]

Well, ok -- I'll make a concession, Mike -- it doesn't necessarily have to be the "big bad government" that supplies the qualified examiners. But if it's not a requirement by law, you can bet a lot of shops won't do it, just so they can offer lower prices. Other than making the tiered system a legal requirement, there's little reason for anyone to support it. It's pretty obvious that safety is currently only a very minor concern among OW instructors.

- Warren

 

[Rick L]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO did I say No!!!!!!
Everything the government gets involved with gets expensive!!
Like its not allready! They will make a new ruling body.
Full of political butt kissers who no nothing about diving!
Make all kinds of stupid make no sense rules. and charge
the dive shops and us for more fees and licenses to cover the expenses!!! One thing I will point out I live in mass. its auto insurance is state regulated. New Hampshires insurance is not
I live on the state line!! My daughters insurance is 2400 dollars
if we lived in nh it would be 300 dollars. We have twice the laws
and almost everyone who lives in southern nh works in mass!!
Are inspections are 3 times as much we have to wear seat belts
and helmets on bikes and nh dosn't. So why would OUR insurance
be higher Hmmm BECAUSE MY STATE IS TRYING TO SAVE ME FROM MYSELF!!!!!!!!!!! I DONT WANT THEM USING MY SPORT
TO MAKE THE STATE MONEY!!!!!!!!

 

[g2]

Originally posted by VTWarrenG

This is unreasonable. You agree that there should be a distinction between 'instructors' and 'instructor trainers,' right?

There already are instructors and instructor trainers in the dive industry. I don't see how this pertains to the discussion.

The people teaching flight lessons are instructors (CFI); the people doing checkrides are instructor trainers (CFII). It is unreasonable, uneconomical, and unnecessary to make every flight instructor a CFII.

I have only suggested that instructors be qualified to give exams to scuba students, which is the case now. If your contention is that instructors are not qualified to pass/fail diving students, then this is an issue for the recreational scuba diving industry to address.

Wrong. Becoming a CFI is not significantly more challenging than becoming an OW diving instructor.

I disagree.

Wrong again. Look at the statistics. General aviation airplanes are not a threat to anyone except those flying them.

Tell that to your passengers when you miss the runway in fog.

All I'd like to see is a system that requires new divers be examined by someone more qualified than the standard Joe Schmoe instructor before being let loose with a tank and reg.

It sounds like your argument is that the average instructor is incapable of properly evaluating the skills of his/her students. If this is the case, my response is that it is up to the industry to improve itself rather than having government intervention. Only if the industry proves unable to do so should the government get involved.

Cheers,

g2

 

[SpyderTek]

Warren,

At the risk of seeming like everyone is ganging up on you...

I'd like to say your heart is in the right place with your ideas and I really don't know enough to support or dispute the facts. However, I would like to point out one thing that you have consitently been doing through this thread and other threads you've posted to...

You keep making value judgement regarding the price of things as being "Cheap". I don't know what your income is but everytime I read that I feel like I've been condesended to or looked down upon cause these things are NOT cheap to me.

The absolute minimum I could find to get OW certified was $300 for the classroom / workbook portion, Another $300 for the weekend check out dives, pluse the purchase of the Mask, Snorkle and Fins. $700+ is a pretty substantial layout in my book to become certified (IMHO) and further regulation can only further increase that cost thus putting it out of many many people's price range.

Do we really want to make the sport exclusively for the well off as a means of increasing saftey?


Impoverishly,

SpyderTek

 

[Drew Sailbum]

A form of a tiered system is used by most (I assume) scuba training agencies to certify instructors to begin with. And inevitably this leads to a chicken-and-the-egg conundrum - who certifies the first examiner?

In PADI's system, an instructor candidate can take the IDC (course to prepare you for your Instructor's Exam) from any Course Director. Then, the candidate must pay PADI for evaluation by an instructor examiner - which is far from cheap (around $500 as I recall). Cost of the exam must cover the examiner's cost of travel to the exam site, plus all associated expenses.

And if you want to be a Course Director to train instructor candidates, you must meet the prerequisites and attend a Course Director Training Course. Usually only two such courses are offered per year - worldwide. Candidates must apply for a spot in the course, and there are more applications than available slots. And then there is the fee of roughly $6,000 for the course.

And if you want to be an Instructor Examiner or be able to train the Course Directors? I think you must either be employed directly by PADI, or under a contract with them.


I doubt that a system of examiners to evaluate open-water divers would be practical. In dive destinations (Florida), an economy of scale would bring down the costs associated with such a system. In areas with few dive centers (Montana), occasional travel by an examiner to evaluate comparitively few students would be quite costly on a per student basis.

I think the economies of such a system would actually encourage more of the short course format open-water classes. Alternatively, it would force the Florida divers to pay a significant subsidy for diver exam costs in those less served areas - the Montanas of the diving world.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by NetDoc
As I understand it, I do believe that the government should regulate breathing of all types. Thats right! A recent study has shown that EVERYONE who breathes will eventually die. It might take a few years, but I am telling you that this breathing stuff catches up with you quick.

It doesn't matter what you breathe either. Once you take your first breath, you can be certain that you will die. The catch 22 of this situation is that they have found that cessation of breathing to be equally as deadly! In fact you get deader quicker. So please, please lets all write our congressmen and get them to legislate that too!

Boy, you said it NetDoc... and when you mix breathing with hydrogen hydroxide... whew! you really have a recipe for disaster. We need to form the BBAH agency immediately! Wanna be the head goat?
Rick