Good news re BP/W choice

[uncfnp]

Cheers for the video - I understand it now!

You are most welcome!

The fluff referred to is the plastic buckles, the chest strap and padding (ignoring the extra rings which really aren't that big an issue).

Reasons why they are fluff:
1) Plastic buckles are a failure point. They add a weak point to the system instead of a straight strong piece of webbing.
2) The buckles being adjustable are not required and actually make more work every dive as the standard way of working is to adjust them to "loose" prior to donning and then snug them when the gear is on - with the simple harness it is adjusted once and doesn't need changed.
3) A properly adjusted BP&W harness doesn't need adjustment - it fits you perfectly. You don't need to snug it down every dive because the shoulder strap is properly adjusted once.
4) The chest strap isn't needed because the shoulder straps are properly adjusted once and the wing is held in the right place by the crotch strap.
5) Padding - not really needed in the water. Even on land the harness fits properly and 2 inch wide webbing actually spreads the weight quite well. The padding is also yet another thing that needs extra weight to offset its buoyancy.

You don't need the more adjustable fit (which gets adjusted everytime) - you just need the right fit. 5-10 minutes with the simple harness will set it up right for anyone.

And as a member of the 4th crowd in Eric's post I will give an alternative viewpoint.

Not everyone's needs are the same. When I started setting up my plate I knew ROM could be an issue. I really liked the simplicity of the single webbing harness. It just didn't work for me. Even in the water the straps were uncomfortable and cut into my shoulders. And I dive Bonaire, a fair amount of hiking fully donned.

For ROM issues, I chose to add quick release buckles. Some view this as a failure point. I do not. And so far the buckles are holding up better then the webbing that is already starting to show significant wear at stress points. And because I DYI I know my gear and inspect it frequently and can easily correct any issues. Other divers use others options to deal with this including the cinches and glides sold by Halcyon and DSS.

Next I added shoulder pads. Yes, they are an irritant and I would perfer not to have them but they do make the rig more comfortable for me. So for now at least they stay.

But the angle of the strap still cut into my under arm. Solution, chest strap to pull the webbing forward onto my chest. Yes, another irritant and I omit this on boat dives but have the option for Bonaire.

D-rings? Yep, more then the standard. I admit that too often I look more like a christmas tree then a diver with reels, bags, lights, lobster gear, lionfish poles, slung redundancy and I like extra rings to keep the gear in place and avoid pockets.

So no, I'm not part of the kool crowd but I dive the way I chose and that works for me.

 

[BDSC]

Thanks.

Years ago I dove a jacket and really switched to the BI because of the shoulder clips. My right shoulder started to give me problems (still does from time to time) and I found it more comfortable to be able to just throw the strap over the should and clip it in than to reach back to put on the jacket. Just wondered if the same could be true with a BP/W setup.

As far as the plastic clips go, never had one fail in 24 years. Not saying one couldn't be in reality it's highly unlikely to ever happen.

 

[dmaziuk]

Thanks.

Years ago I dove a jacket and really switched to the BI because of the shoulder clips. My right shoulder started to give me problems (still does from time to time) and I found it more comfortable to be able to just throw the strap over the should and clip it in than to reach back to put on the jacket. Just wondered if the same could be true with a BP/W setup.

As far as the plastic clips go, never had one fail in 24 years. Not saying one couldn't be in reality it's highly unlikely to ever happen.

Depends on the plastic, some cheap .cn crap goes brittle after a few years.

Anyway, you can cut the strap and add the buckle, it's your kit. Or loop the strap under the buckle instead of cutting it. I have one of these: Sub Gravity Back-Plate Harness Slider 316 SS SG-100.SS, it's not "just throw over the shoulder" but it works well enough for me.

PS. I do have a pocket on the belt and an extra D-ring on the right: one for the camera, one the octo. Maybe someday I'll get me a short-hose necklace octopus and then get rid of that, but for now: the D-ring stays.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

The plastic buckle thing is something that the DIR crowd came up with as being unacceptable. Prior to that I never heard of plastic failing. I think the most vulnerable time for anything plastic is on a boat deck with weights and tanks being slung around banging into stuff. I know plastic reg faceplates cringe when anything heavy comes down hard anywhere near them.
What I would consider fluff would mostly be padding. But then I also dive in nothing less than a 7 mil so double that up on the shoulders and there's my built in padding. So for me why would I want more on the straps?
The plastic shoulder releases I suppose could be considered fluff by some. I personally don't need them and I see them, at least on shoulder straps, as something fairly complex. The webbing has to loop twice adding thickness and requires two keepers, plus each component of the plastic clip. This adds bulk in an area that I like to keep clean just for a D-ring. The old schoolers used to use a regular weight belt buckle as a shoulder release on one side back in the day. Some still do. Some people really like their plastic shoulder releases and for those who need them and fly to dive warm water I see nothing wrong with the lightness of plastic.
I think plate padding is nonsense. Any properly designed plate should not need padding.
Chest straps are another option that many people find useful. I don't use one with a rig which uses 2" webbing. But I have a retro 1" basket harness that has a chest strap and all the connections including the waist strap are double D-ring style. I'll bet not too many here have seen one of those.

To me fluff more describes all the jackets and other sewn up fabric padded up contraptions out there.
If someone uses a BP/W with a few extras fine, at least they're in a plate so AFAIK they're already way ahead in the game.

 

[Neilwood]

The plastic buckle thing is something that the DIR crowd came up with as being unacceptable. Prior to that I never heard of plastic failing. I think the most vulnerable time for anything plastic is on a boat deck with weights and tanks being slung around banging into stuff. I know plastic reg faceplates cringe when anything heavy comes down hard anywhere near them.
What I would consider fluff would mostly be padding. But then I also dive in nothing less than a 7 mil so double that up on the shoulders and there's my built in padding. So for me why would I want more on the straps?
The plastic shoulder releases I suppose could be considered fluff by some. I personally don't need them and I see them, at least on shoulder straps, as something fairly complex. The webbing has to loop twice adding thickness and requires two keepers, plus each component of the plastic clip. This adds bulk in an area that I like to keep clean just for a D-ring. The old schoolers used to use a regular weight belt buckle as a shoulder release on one side back in the day. Some still do. Some people really like their plastic shoulder releases and for those who need them and fly to dive warm water I see nothing wrong with the lightness of plastic.
I think plate padding is nonsense. Any properly designed plate should not need padding.
Chest straps are another option that many people find useful. I don't use one with a rig which uses 2" webbing. But I have a retro 1" basket harness that has a chest strap and all the connections including the waist strap are double D-ring style. I'll bet not too many here have seen one of those.

To me fluff more describes all the jackets and other sewn up fabric padded up contraptions out there.
If someone uses a BP/W with a few extras fine, at least they're in a plate so AFAIK they're already way ahead in the game.

So true!

Have to say with most jacket BCD's only having plastic clips, if we are looking at failure points then they are awful!

On the subject of plastic buckles - I had one fail without notice on a weight harness (belt had a habit of slipping badly) during my OW course (it split along the side so there was no way to get a "lock" with it). It was under the jacket BCD so couldn't move anywhere so wasn't a great issue but I could see it being a bigger problem if that had been part of the BCD harness.

 

[BDSC]

Have to say with most jacket BCD's only having plastic clips, if we are looking at failure points then they are awful!

This is what I call an internet problem and not a real life diving problem. My SP BCD has weight pouches that attach to the BCD with clips. Never had a failure. The shoulder straps have clips like the "fluffy" Dive Rite harness. Never a failure. It has a chest strap with a clip. Never a failure. As a matter of fact, I've never been on a dive boat or done a shore dive with anyone where a plastic clip failed.


If all the "failure points" that are pointed out on ScubaBoard actually happened, most of us would be dead or have several near death experiences to share. But again, it's not real life.

 

[dmaziuk]

This is what I call an internet problem and not a real life diving problem. My SP BCD has weight pouches that attach to the BCD with clips. Never had a failure. The shoulder straps have clips like the "fluffy" Dive Rite harness. Never a failure. It has a chest strap with a clip. Never a failure. As a matter of fact, I've never been on a dive boat or done a shore dive with anyone where a plastic clip failed.


If all the "failure points" that are pointed out on ScubaBoard actually happened, most of us would be dead or have several near death experiences to share. But again, it's not real life.

I did have a backpack hip belt clip fail. It was a cheap backpack and the clip lasted longer than some of the webbing. When it was new I couldn't tell it wouldn't last by looking at it.

I think there's load to consider: a clip on the shoulder strap's under more strain than the clip on the weight pouch. The former failing while you're walking down "1000 steps" could ruin you entire Bonaire trip. The latter might only give you a limp.

 

[cool_hardware52]

My take on plastic being a "failure point" Plastic fails, good quality plastic parts are pretty robust, but it can fail. Almost always out of the water, as harness components are only very lightly loaded in the water.

Having said that I suspect that much of the "anti" plastic rhetoric is really based on the fact that most plastic components in most BC's are sewn in, and difficult to replace in the field. That makes a failure at the edge of the spring in the back woods more of a PITA.

If there was a sewing machine at the water's edge I suspect much of the "plastic will kill you" nonsense would have never gained traction in the early days of tech diving.

Tobin

 

[redacted]

I have seen a number of plastic 2nds and inflators with cracked bits, apparently due to rough handling. I have metal 2nds that are rather severely beat up but still working. I have had pull rings and D-rings on BCDs break and they are difficult to replace. I have had quick releases let go by accident. Now, I avoid them unless really needed. When I first went to BP/W, I have worked a quick release into a continuous harness only to find it was pretty much unnecessary. As I get older, I may have to revisit them; but not yet.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I have seen a number of plastic 2nds and inflators with cracked bits, apparently due to rough handling. I have metal 2nds that are rather severely beat up but still working. I have had pull rings and D-rings on BCDs break and they are difficult to replace. I have had quick releases let go by accident. Now, I avoid them unless really needed. When I first went to BP/W, I have worked a quick release into a continuous harness only to find it was pretty much unnecessary. As I get older, I may have to revisit them; but not yet.

Me too. I avoid plastic in loaded applications if I can.

The fact that for the vast majority of users a single piece Hogarthian Harness is perfectly usable *without* any extras is IMO part of what allowed "Plastic can be a Pita if it breaks" morph into "you are going to die"

Tobin