Going From Tdi An/dp To Helitrox?

[CptTightPants21]

How is that the same when you are taking about a cert for more depth and I'm not? And I'm not sure what your comment about less O2 means, unless you're implying Tech 1 certs you for Hypoxic mixes, which would make it even more apples-to-oranges. Regardless, that doesn't seem the same at all to me.

It doesn't seem like a valid comparison at all.

Let me ask you the question a different way: If TDI announced that they were proposing to change the Helitrox standards to require AN + DP (currently only requires AN) either as a prereq or in conjunction with, and eliminate in-water requirements from the Helitrox standards (but no change to the DP in-water requirements), what would be your argument to TDI against this change?

Agreed Rivers gave a poor example (sorry mate, just was).

If Helitrox is done in conjuntion with AN/DP--like it almost always is now, no issue. It has in water skills.
If your AN/DP instructor wants to give you a helitrox upgrade later on without doing skills--again that is ok, and the way standards are today.
If you plan on making Helitrox a stand alone course with no in water skills so that any random instructor can give out the certification to any AN/DP certified diver---NO. When are you going to understand that there this is no such thing as a no-dive card at this skills level?

 

[stuartv]

[30-ish years ago....]

Q: Can we change things to let Rec divers use Nitrox?

A: No, there is no cert for Nitrox for Rec divers.

Q: But, why not change the standards to provide a cert for Rec divers to use Nitrox?

A: When are you going to understand that there is no such thing as a Nitrox cert for Recreational divers?

 

[kr2y5]

Still no answer to what it is about diving 20% Helium that makes it require a higher level of in-water skills

Nobody said it requires a higher level of skills. It requires a different person to vouch for you. That person, apart from the formal requirements, may (and as I understand often does) have their own idea of what constitutes the right level of performance. From what I can tell, standards themselves often allow some degree of subjective interpretation. The new instructor may or may not agree with your previous instructor that you have the required level of skills. In other words, the same skills could be graded differently. The second instructor's opinion represents an independent assessment, she may reach different conclusions, and could be judged by others. Presumably, there's also the question of liability (and I'm just speculating here, I don't know).

 

[OMANDIVER]

I would echo a previous post, it might be more useful and economical in the longer term to do the Trimix course. I did ER as well. An/dp sets you nicely for that progression. Two deco tanks not a major challenge and a useful thing to have in my experience.

 

[stuartv]

Fair enough. Maybe nobody here said that and I got the impression from the emails I exchanged directly with TDI.

But, if everyone agrees that the in-water skill requirements are the same, then the conclusion I reach is that TDI does not respect or acknowledge TDI's own certifications. I could understand if GUE or IANTD or someone else didn't accept a TDI certification as satisfactory evidence that the person has demonstrated a certain level of skill.

But, what does it say that TDI doesn't accept its own certification of a certain level of in-water skill as satisfactory evidence that the person has demonstrated that level? I mean, satisfactory to be willing to issue an additional certification that requires the exact same set and level of in-water skills without requiring the student to demonstrate them again?

I understand that the CURRENT standards would require a new (to-the-student) instructor to attest to something they haven't seen if they were going to issue a Helitrox cert without diving with the student. I'm trying to understand what would be wrong with changing the standards so that an instructor could issue a Helitrox cert by only attesting that that instructor has verified the student has the required classroom knowledge and verified that the student already has TDI AN+DP certification? In that case, the Helitrox instructor would be making no attestation or issuing any certification that says or implies that that Helitrox instructor has evaluated any in-water skills. Just like a TDI Nitrox instructor.

If TDI won't accept its own certification as evidence of a certain standard level of in-water skill, why should anyone else?

 

[stuartv]

I would echo a previous post, it might be more useful and economical in the longer term to do the Trimix course.

Absolutely!

Unless TDI were to change its standards to make Helitrox a classroom-only course with AN and DP as prerequisites. In which case the Helitrox class should be fairly economical. And allow me to be a safer diver in the meantime until I feel ready to take Trimix.....

 

[kr2y5]

It all probably boils down to having a judgmental and litigious society, where anybody can get misjudged, accused, or even sued for all sorts of idiotic reasons. Some overzealous lawyer over there, somewhere is probably dying to make a case that TDI is accountable if they were to allow one instructor to just rubber-stamp another instructor's cert, without actually putting themselves on the line.

 

[stuartv]

Maybe. Are they doing that now for TDI Nitrox certs? What about for SDI Computer Nitrox certs? (lawyers suing SDI/TDI for rubber-stamping certs)

It seems to me that as long as the instructor has clear evidence that they followed the standards issuing a classroom-only Helitrox cert would be no more liability exposure than either of those other classroom-only certs.

Really, it seems like it would be less exposure for an instructor than if they were actually attesting to the diver meeting a certain level of in-water skill.

And, seriously, who is more likely to have an accident and get hurt? An OW diver with 4 dives and a classroom-only Nitrox cert (I only had my 4 OW checkout dives when I got my Nitrox cert)? Or a diver who has met all the standards and requirements to get AN/DP certification and then also gotten a classroom-only Helitrox cert?

 

[CptTightPants21]

At this point what are you even talking about?

The standards WILL not change, the standards SHOULD not change.

You can make all the convoluted excuses you want, but at the end of the day the fundamental principle which you fail to grasp is simple; when an instructor issues a card, their name on that card stands for something.

 

[KenGordon]

Stuart, my first trimix qualification was BSAC SMG. It is a 50m qualification to use 20/30. Prior to that course I had was a BSAC Dive Leader which is a 50m nitrox qualification and ADP which is an accelerated deco (single stage) qualification. By your logic I should have been able to just turn up for an hour or two of theory and walk off with the qualification without getting wet.

If you accept the theory that helium is a 'fast' gas then the risk and consequences involved of cocking it up are greater than with nitrox. One minute of missed helium deco is worth more than one minute of nitrox deco. Thus all the risk are worse. To keep yourself safe you have to be less likely to cock up. The judge of that is the instructor handing over the cert.