Gilboa

[detroit diver]

wb416 once bubbled...


After my first DS dive, I hated it... it's a good thing I didn't know about ebay back then (that was probably pre-ebay).... and it was about 10 dives before I started to like the thing....

now with about 300 dives in that suit, it's like second skin.... but it didn't get that way by accident... practice, practice, practice....

After my first drysuit dive, I asked my instructor if this was the same sport that he had previously taught me! I was really depressed. It took quite a while for me to get comfortable with it. I still don't like the arm vents....

 

[diverbrian]

As I took to drysuit diving quickly in my specialty course (we used a lake with a 40 ft bottom, so this type of thing wouldn't have happened and while I didn't get much instructor attention in the pool before, I did learn to control the feet first ascent BEFORE open water work), I would like to look at the larger issues.

One, I feel for Mike and the staff there. I have spoken with him several times this year and know that he does everything in his power to run a safe operation down there. I don't know what else he can do to stop people from going over that wall!

Two, was the planned depth discussed by the instructor running this demo? If it was, why didn't the diver notice when he is sitting on the other side of the wall at 50-60 ft? If it wasn't, well ... I will let our resident instructor comment on that. My thoughts on that as DiveCon canidate are certainly not printable. What I know of professional standards would have an dive professional nailed to the proverbial wall for not discussing the planned depth and basically the dive plan with the participants.

The bottom line is that I highly doubt if this diver filed a plan to go over there. Knowing what the waivers that all of us that dive at the quarry sign state, he should have realized that he shouldn't be over there. Hey, we all do stupid things. I have lost relatives in similar acts that weren't diving related. But in the end, those relatives and this diver were responsible for their own safety.

If the instructor violated his professional standards by allowing this, that was a problem that needs to be dealt with as well.

Maybe Mike should post some of these incident reports on the wall or in a small manual similar to the accident analysis that was done on wreck and cave diving. Maybe that would wake up some of the people that sneak over the wall to say that they reached 100 ft. Maybe it would help them to know (without names, just actual incidents) that people actually can die and have died when they violate/violated basic safety in that quarry. The regulator freeze-ups in there are common. It is one of the easiest places that I know of to get seriously narced as there is no visual point of reference on the deep side between the sump/wall/road and the deep end dock. It is like a moonscape down there. Divers underestimate this stuff, because it is a small body of water. However, 120 ft. is still 120 ft. Serious deep depth needs to be respected! I know of people that dive that end in single eighties with a small pony. I am not that brave. If I am over on that side it is with duals, primarily because it is easier to do the valve shut-offs if I get a free-flow (which hasn't happened yet, but may happen anytime).

Anyways, sorry about the long rant. It just burns me that divers still take this place lightly enough to disregard safety even though Mike has done all he can to try to enforce it.

I agree with the post about diving there on weekends during the summer as well. That shallow end is a coal mine with all of the classes that are done there. But, they have to do those classes somewhere, so I will just stay local until it gets too cold for those classes.

 

[MikeFerrara]

diverbrian once bubbled...
I know of people that dive that end in single eighties with a small pony. I am not that brave. If I am over on that side it is with duals, primarily because it is easier to do the valve shut-offs if I get a free-flow (which hasn't happened yet, but may happen anytime).

We dive the deeper parts of Gilboa a lot. It's like a second home. It's where we go to break in new gear and in general just stay in shape when we can't fit in a cave trip. It might be cold but for a diver who is equiped and prepared it's an easy dive. There's no current no rough seas and it's small so you can't get lost at sea. I dive it in a dry suit with doubles and an O2 bottle for decompression. Single 80? no-stop dive? Not me! I'm not that brave either.

I've wrote before about one class I saw down there. We were headed up to our first stop and I seen two divers by the trapeze. They they were in the bottom and floundering pretty good. I started heading over that way when I noticed one had a bag with a plastic bottle and some other stuff in it. That's when I realized it was a class and the idiot was an instructor. He looked scared to death as he climbed the rope hand over hand with his student.

A student of mine had a free flow down by the truck once. He casually shut down the reg and switched to his backup. It was a good class.

 

[Genesis]

Just what is it gointg to take for people to stop making excuses or chalking this stuff up to bad luck? When is somebody going to take responsibility? When are the diving masses going to require somebody to take responsibility?

Next we'll have people telling us that we MUST look both ways before we cross the street. By God, someone might run us over!

Look, you cannot do a THING about people being stupid. I know that it sucks, but its reality.

We CAN fix the legal system to stop the insanity in the courts, but nobody wants to do that. Why, that would mean that when someone does a dumb thing and dies, they and their family would have to eat the consequences of their actions!

 

[gbrandon]

The link above doesent work but I found the story...

By JOHN FIKE
• jfike@limanews.com •
419-993-2098

GILBOA - A Stevensville, Mich., man drowned while scuba diving in Gilboa Quarry on Sunday morning.

Benjamin Scott Hartman, 26, was part of a diving suit demonstration by San Diego, Ca.,-based diving suit manufacturer Diving Unlimited International, when he drowned at 10:13 a.m., the Putnam County Sheriff's Office reported. He was pronounced dead at St. Rita's Medical Center.

According to the report, divers were demonstrating the dry suits in groups that were supervised by certified instructors. Hartman was with a group of four other divers and an instructor when he went astray with another group doing a deep dive.

The report said Hartman's instructor went after him when he noticed Hartman descended into a deep portion of the quarry. The instructor stopped Hartman at 120 feet deep and began to assist him on his ascent to the surface, the sheriff's report said. During the ascent, Hartman allegedly panicked and lost his breathing regulator.

Once on the surface, the report said, other divers performed rescue breathing and cardiopulmonary resuscitation until rescue crews arrived. Hartman was flown by helicopter to St. Rita's.

Records at The Lima News show two other scuba divers died in Gilboa Quarry in the past six years. On June 9, 2002, 49-year-old James Colopy of Uniontown died of an embolism when he ascended too quickly from his dive. Brian Sedran, 34, of Windsor, Ontario, drowned on June 22, 1997. All three incidents occurred on Sundays.
======================================


Sounds like sundays are not a good day to go diving..

 

[diverbrian]

I would still be more interested in the incident report that the instructor has to file over this. I have feeling it will be more accurate than a reporter's version for a paper. I am already suspicious by the term "drowning." Was it an air embolism or drowning? I would like to know if the reporter is a diver himself. I doubt that this guy drowned in the relatively short trip to the surface. It is possible, but I would think that air embolism is more likely. I also read an account (via e-mail to me, so I won't post it) from a local instructor indicating that there were two dive buddies (one of them was the unfortunate guy who died) involved. The divers that were accidently followed were from the shop that she works at and were involved in the attempted rescue.

Let's see some more precise facts that may give us some ideas what actually went wrong. I would like to think that these things will not continue, but unfortunately, I have my doubts.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Everyone,

Just what is it going to take for people to stop making excuses or chalking this stuff up to bad luck? When is somebody going to take responsibility? When are the diving masses going to require somebody to take responsibility?

Well, what the hell, diving is as safe as bowling right? Loosing a few now and then isn't so bad is it? Or is it?

The guy that's responsible is -dead-.

And it wasn't a training issue.

He made his mistake (several, actually), and paid his price.

I don't want anyone else, especially you, to take responsibility for my diving.

Because if it was left up to you, there would be no DUI demo days, and the -thousands- of divers that get an opportunity to try a drysuit never would.

And I won't be told by someone where and when and how I can dive, especially one who looks though the glass darkly.

Not to rain on everybody's witch hunt, but has anybody ascertained whether or not the drysuit was even involved in the accident?

I was told the kid got lost, went deep, panicked, and hoovered his tank.

And it's not DUI's fault the kid couldn't read a depth guage or an SPG.

 

[Big-t-2538]

Popeye once bubbled...

I was told the kid got lost, went deep, panicked, and hoovered his tank.

All that other stuff aside, if you are being led by a DM who acknowledges you as one of his/her responsiblities....how the hell did that DM not figure out well before the kid got seriously lost that he was lost?

I know when I DM I watch everyone....my group and anyone in the vicinty who might pose a risk to myself or my group. It is true that ultimately it was the diver's lack of knowledge and lack of ability to handle a situation (whatever that situation was) that led to his demise.

I'd still like to know how the hell he got over the wall if he was being "watched" by a DM or Instructor.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


The guy that's responsible is -dead-.

And it wasn't a training issue.

He made his mistake (several, actually), and paid his price.

Yes he was ultimately responsible. Sounds like a lot of mistakes for a trained diver especially under supervission. Like they say "buyer beware".

I don't want anyone else, especially you, to take responsibility for my diving.

I don't want responsibility for your diving. I do, however think that I should take responsibility for the skill level of my students when I hand them a card

Because if it was left up to you, there would be no DUI demo days, and the -thousands- of divers that get an opportunity to try a drysuit never would.

Not true. I have stated though that based on the training standards I am bound by I have had to decline when invited to help with Whites demo days. So I guess I would do it differently

And I won't be told by someone where and when and how I can dive, especially one who looks though the glass darkly.

I certainly don't want to tell you when, where or how to dive. I suppose many of my experiences in diving and the dive industry cause me to have a dim view.

Not to rain on everybody's witch hunt, but has anybody ascertained whether or not the drysuit was even involved in the accident?

Not that I've heard.

I was told the kid got lost, went deep, panicked, and hoovered his tank.

And it's not DUI's fault the kid couldn't read a depth guage or an SPG.

It isn't DUI's fault if he couldn't use his gauges but I suppose that's why these dives are supervised.
I can't help but wonder how much con trol the diver had over his position in the water. I wonder what he knew about gas management. I wonder how all these things happened all on the same supervised dive.

Popeye, you seem of the opinion that the diver just had a bad day or something. I guess that based on my experience in the dive industry I'm not as comfortable with all of this as you are.

 

[diverbrian]

I share the same question as Big-T. I ultimately hold the diver responsible. But what in the blazes ACTUALLY happened down there? How do we know if the diver didn't intentionally plan a "test" of the drysuit and slip away when the dive master wasn't looking? I mean that I can come up with several different scenarios. But this "I heard that...." stuff is speculation. I would be interested in FACT. Right now, facts appear to be sketchy and no one is really talking. Until the facts are released, let's hold our fire on blame. Blame isn't important. Figuring out what it will take to minimize the EMS calls/deaths down there is very important. If fingers start getting pointed, everybody will be looking to cover their collective hind ends and we will see more of this. Let's figure out ways to convince ill-equipped/ ill-trained divers from figuring that they can go over there at will and that it is "safe as bowling." We all need to keep in mind our limits and try to dive within them. It isn't the easiest thing in the world in the world to do when that word "pride" gets involved. It easily turns into stupidity.