Gilboa

[MikeFerrara]

Everyone,

Preventing and controling dangerous situations during training is an instructors primarry resposibility. The training itself is designed (or should be) to prevent and give the diver the ability to control them after training. I view this as yet another failure of dive training to serve it's function. Even if the diver had some medical problem it doesn;t explain how he got over the wall. I've seen to much of this crap and nobody ever answers for it.

I didn't know this diver or his family but I feel for them. I know Mike Williams (owner of Gilboa) very well and our thoughts are with him because I know this crap tears him up. He is among the most safety minded people I know and does everything he can to make Gilboa as safe and fun as possible. Mike genuinly cares for people and especially his customers and I know this is hard for him.

Just what is it gointg to take for people to stop making excuses or chalking this stuff up to bad luck? When is somebody going to take responsibility? When are the diving masses going to require somebody to take responsibility?

Well, what the hell, diving is as safe as bowling right? Loosing a few now and then isn't so bad is it? Or is it?

 

[O-ring]

That's kinda where I was going, but you did a much better job with it than I did. I was going on the assumption that this guy was not an experienced drysuit diver and did not have a drysuit c-card.

Here's what the DUI site says about the Gilboa Demo Days:

DEMOS

DEMOS will be conducted Saturday from 9am-5pm and Sunday from 9am – 4pm. Each demo will consist of a dive briefing, drysuit sizing, and question & answer session after the actual dive. As soon as there are 2-3 people ready to go in the water, an experienced drysuit diver or instructor will escort you on your dive. If you are a certified drysuit diver, you are welcome to dive with your own buddy. You can do as many dives as you wish. With numerous suits, there is little wait, though, you may need to wait a short time for the specific product you want. You can try other equipment as well including Sea & Sea underwater cameras. We will ask that you do 2 dives in the drysuit before trying to combine both the suit and camera on the same dive.

 

[wreckchick]

Mike,

I understand your frustration and I agree that any number of things went very wrong with that dive.

I can only speak from my experience the day before as to how the demo was conducted. I was briefed on the surface about how the drysuit worked, and how to control buoyancy (add air to the drysuit to prevent squeeze and the bcd for buoyancy).

We went out a little bit into pretty shallow water after weight checking close to shore and tried to descend for some practice in shallow water. The vis was awful, very near zero, so we as a group opted to go a little further out where we could see. We went down in about 15' of water and poked around a little bit. This was between the floating dock and the first wooden dock. From there we picked up the line running to the van and followed that out using it as a reference and then followed it back.

The other demo diver with me ended up having some problems with his fin/boot and we ended up on the surface back in to the tent area.

I was in the water for approx. 40 minutes, at least half of that on the surface trying to find a place to practice safely with all of us together.

The dive is not designed to be a full session of drysuit training and one can argue the safety of these demos, but the instructor I was with was very careful to keep a close eye on us and took us into controlled conditions. I didn't feel that it was an unsafe dive given my experience with it.

I have a major problem with someone that takes out a drysuit on one of these demos and ends up at 120', or even 80', and still thinks that's a normal thing. I would have had a major problem with going any deeper than I did. 30' for a dive like that seems fine but I wouldnt' have been comfortable going to even 50'. As diligent as the instructor might have been, and that point can be argued as well, it is still up to the diver to make a judgement call about what is appropriate and that diver didn't think that what he was doing was inappropriate and that is bad judgement.

R

 

[jepuskar]

Dude,

I really think you should take your comments to biscuit to PM's or another thread...

"yo biscuit...
you're going to have to let me know how the trial set-up went. I am anxious to hear what you thought about the bp/wing set-up and even a dry-suit....(though I need zero convincing to get a dry-suit...I just need the $$$ <grumble house...kids...grumble> )

I finally get to try a BP and wing in 2 weeks (thanks ckharlan) I am curious as to what kind of weighting adjustments you had to make....what the bouyancy differences felt like...etc. etc."

Come on man, it just seems a little insensitive that you talk about this and then basically go..ohh yeah, and sorry about that diver who died. Just seems a little weird to me.

 

[MikeFerrara]

jepuskar once bubbled...
Dude,

I really think you should take your comments to biscuit to PM's or another thread...

"yo biscuit...
you're going to have to let me know how the trial set-up went. I am anxious to hear what you thought about the bp/wing set-up and even a dry-suit....(though I need zero convincing to get a dry-suit...I just need the $$$ <grumble house...kids...grumble> )

I finally get to try a BP and wing in 2 weeks (thanks ckharlan) I am curious as to what kind of weighting adjustments you had to make....what the bouyancy differences felt like...etc. etc."

Come on man, it just seems a little insensitive that you talk about this and then basically go..ohh yeah, and sorry about that diver who died. Just seems a little weird to me.

Every one is sorry about the diver but when is somebody going to do something useful to prevent such things.

I'm trying to spend my efforts waking folks up so we avoid the next one.

I have a dry suit rep pissed at me because I won't help with such demonstrations. As an instructor who knows the standards I can't see a way to do it that satisfies the requirements of the training standards and I know all the loop holes. But...it sells dry suits. They sell dry suits and I don't sell very many. I guess they'right and I'm wrong.

You can always bring in the argument of diver responsibility but one doesn't know what they don't know as they say. The instructor should though. I listed the resposibilities of an instructor. They are clearly spelled out in training standards. The reason for this is to avoid accidents in training.

Well, I have done dry suit and full face mask demonstrations in a pool but no one ever ended up at 120.

IMO, the insensitive ones are the ones willing to let this happen again! But by all means don't say anything harsh to any one. Don't assign responsibility. Don't place blame. Don't insisty on corrective action. Just express condolances because you don't want to come accross as insensitive.

I hate to say I told you so but I told you so a thousand times.

signed, pissed off Mike

 

[MASS-Diver]

I never realized that demo days where for divers that had never dove in a DS before, that's scary. Although it sounds like some of the blame in this one falls on the dead diver, my bet is that he was feeling pretty good in the DS and started scewing around - next thing you know it's all over. Sounds like a runaway ascent with some breath holding.

So, what do you do in the situation:

1.) Don't hold your breath
2.) Flare out
3.) Yank your neck seal open HARD
4.) If you are inverted and unable to do flip back - slash as your feet with your knife - cut your suit open - flood it fast

 

[MikeFerrara]

MASS-Diver once bubbled...
I never realized that demo days where for divers that had never dove in a DS before, that's scary. Although it sounds like some of the blame in this one falls on the dead diver, my bet is that he was feeling pretty good in the DS and started scewing around - next thing you know it's all over. Sounds like a runaway ascent with some breath holding.

So, what do you do in the situation:

1.) Don't hold your breath
2.) Flare out
3.) Yank your neck seal open HARD
4.) If you are inverted and unable to do flip back - slash as your feet with your knife - cut your suit open - flood it fast

Ixsna on the knife. There are better ways I think.

 

[O-ring]

IMO, if there was an instructor/student relationship here...even an implied one, someone doesn't have a leg to stand on. That student 1) shouldn't have been that deep according to most agency standards I am familiar with (maybe this was an agency I have no experience with) and 2) shouldn't have been able to get away and venture down to the deep end.

Right now, I am thinking violation of duty of care based on non-adherence to agency standards, but what do I know...I am not an instructor..

Those of you that were there and participated...what kinda waiver did you have to sign??

 

[Big-t-2538]

jepuskar once bubbled...

Come on man, it just seems a little insensitive that you talk about this and then basically go..ohh yeah, and sorry about that diver who died. Just seems a little weird to me.

Honestly I do feel sorry for the family and friends of the vitctim.....

The only thing with me is when I read things like this, I get a little pissed b/c I have my suspicions that this was a totally preventable incident. It affects me as a diver who frequents that quarry, everyone there that day, everyone who reads about it, the owners of the quarry, the crew that worked on the diver on scene, but mostly the family and friends of that diver.

I deal with being pissed by changing the subject or finding something positive to talk about....well as positive as I can.

I no longer dive gilboa on the weekends unless one of our instructors has asked for my help with a class, or if I am invloved in a class. there is just too much "blind leading the blind" going on up there. I don't blame the owner, I blame the instructors doing a crappy job. There are way too many people taking advantage of that quarry, and I have heard through the grapevine that owner Mike williams has pissed some people off this year and they have said they aren't returning.....GOOD FOR HIM...the more crap he gets rid of, the less he'll have to deal with.

Does anyone know what the other divers' profiles were in that group that was being led around...or just the victim's and the instructor's?

 

[wb416]

O-ring once bubbled...

[snip]

Those of you that were there and participated...what kinda waiver did you have to sign??

It's been a few years since I've attended a DUI event (I circumvent the whole mob scene stayed clear of it this year also), but back then, to "guide" a group of divers, you just had to be a divemaster... that may have changed since then. The waivers for the testers was pretty standard fare. Not sure what they use these days though.

On another board, 2Old2 painted a provocative picture.

Author: 2old2
Date: 06-02-03 13:34

Was there the whole weekend, dove with the DUI groups Sat and Sunday morning. I hated to say I told you so.and didn't ,but didn't think things we being handled right in regards to the Dry suit diving. no training, deep side, cold,to many divers pre guide, and a to relaxed atmosphere = trouble. I dove with my wife and another Instructor, since we were all certified in drysuits.
Summed up DUI was pushing the Sell of a suit, as hard as they could and anyone was allowed to try them out. Thats ok, but why didn't they do it on the shallow side. Mike and Jody were both shook up their both good folks. But now we'll see how the Lawsuits will be handled. and who gets blamed, I listened to alot of finger pointing.. Terrible way to end a great weekend.

Frankly, I'm surprised that he spoke so forthrightly... I'm guessing he hasn't consulted legal representation.

Hard to say what, if anything, comes of this, but it'll probably fade into the background for all but the family, friends, quarry & DUI staff that have this tragedy etched into their memories. Nothing good comes of things like this, but lives are forever effected. Condolences to all involved & kudos to the rescue effort that was mounted.

Bob