Getting through Rough Surf?

[pasley]

Although I try not to dive in high surf, I don't quite understand why someone would want to deflate their B/C during entry...QUOTE]
Let’s turn this question around. Why would you want to have air in you BC in the surf zone? In the surf zone you are sill standing on the bottom with your head out of the water. So what purpose does air in the BC serve?

Now let us again discuss the dynamics of a wave. If the wave passes over you, it is no problem if you are low and on or close to the sand. That is why I try to go under the bigger waves. With just a little air in the BC you will not be able to go to the bottom and stay there while the wave passes over. Example, While standing on the beach, I pressed the purge button on my BC to ensure there was no air in it before a class were we were snorkeling. But could I dive down, no, Someone asked if I had air in my BC, I said no and pressed the purge bottom. Now with the sea squeezing by BC the ambient air in my BC now came rushing out and down I went. Just that little bit of air that lacked enough pressure to even make a sound on the beach was enough to ensure I could not go under water. The buoyancy and added bulk will help the wave pull you to the top where it will then throw you over the crest of the wave and head first into the sand or rock and potentially a broken neck.

In the end it is your individual decision on how you do it. You do what works for you. But ask yourself why you do what you do. The whys of no air in the BC have been explained in several of the post here, including mine. Now, ask yourself why do you want air in your BC? You may have several good reasons.

 

[pasley]

... The only caution with this advise is that it assumes that the diver is neutrally buoyant. If I'm stepping off into deep water from shore I often add a little blast to my BC, not even quarter inflated. ...

Neutrally buoyant or negative it really does not matter on a beach entry (our subject here) because you are in water less than shoulder high. If you are still in the surf zone in water between the waves that is over your head, well, you have more than air in or out the BC to worry about. Taht surf is just too big to be diving in.

If upon entering the water you are in water over your head, then you most likely are not still in the surf zone. This is usually the result of jumping off a rock to enter the water and that is a whole different discussion. In a rock entry into deep water, the surf zone literally exist only at the face of the rock. So upon entry you are past the surf zone in a second or two and then a puff or two of air in the BC would IMHO be fine.

 

[scubasean]

Although I try not to dive in high surf, I don't quite understand why someone would want to deflate their B/C during entry...

Let’s turn this question around. Why would you want to have air in you BC in the surf zone? In the surf zone you are sill standing on the bottom with your head out of the water. So what purpose does air in the BC serve?

Now let us again discuss the dynamics of a wave. If the wave passes over you, it is no problem if you are low and on or close to the sand. That is why I try to go under the bigger waves. With just a little air in the BC you will not be able to go to the bottom and stay there while the wave passes over. Example, While standing on the beach, I pressed the purge button on my BC to ensure there was no air in it before a class were we were snorkeling. But could I dive down, no, Someone asked if I had air in my BC, I said no and pressed the purge bottom. Now with the sea squeezing by BC the ambient air in my BC now came rushing out and down I went. Just that little bit of air that lacked enough pressure to even make a sound on the beach was enough to ensure I could not go under water. The buoyancy and added bulk will help the wave pull you to the top where it will then throw you over the crest of the wave and head first into the sand or rock and potentially a broken neck.

In the end it is your individual decision on how you do it. You do what works for you. But ask yourself why you do what you do. The whys of no air in the BC have been explained in several of the post here, including mine. Now, ask yourself why do you want air in your BC? You may have several good reasons.

I agree with your philosophy and appreciate your response...What I didn't see was addressing the combo of having no air in the b/c and having no reg in your mouth at the same time....Do you do this combo? If so, why do you consider this safer than having your reg in your mouth?

That is mainly what confuses me...It is the combo, not one or the other in isolation.

 

[scubacalifornia]

I can understand not wanting the added buoyancy of a filled BC when trying to go down/under a wave. But I'm not clear on the detriment of having a regulator in your mouth, except that it could be yanked out if one gets tumbled.

I lost my mask and snorkel on my first large surf entry. The surf was 2-3' before we geared up, and by the time we got in the water it was more like 5'+. I shouldn't have been there in the first place. The fear of being slammed against the bottom stayed with me for many dives, and made me a more cautious & better diver.

I went out with SOCDC a couple of months ago to Cress St. 17 divers headed in, me being the last one. 16 dove, I got tumbled (again) on the way in. I chose to call the dive for myself...not worth it, and I knew it was beyond my capability. My good sense won out over my pride. Half an hour later as divers started coming in, the waves were as high as 6-7', conditions were like a washing machine, and the consensus was that the group should have called the dive in the first place. I made a good decision for me. The power of the water is one force not worth fighting.

Like so many aspects of diving, surf entries require knowledge and experience. And knowing when to "just say no".
Kevin

 

[pasley]

...What I didn't see was addressing the combo of having no air in the b/c and having no reg in your mouth at the same time....Do you do this combo? If so, why do you consider this safer than having your reg in your mouth?

That is mainly what confuses me...It is the combo, not one or the other in isolation.

Ok, the combination of Regulator in or out of the mouth with no air in the BC is the question.

I really don’t see it as a combination. The decision to use a snorkel or have the regulator in your mouth is IMHO independent of the the decision to have air in or not in the BC question. Regulator in or out of the mouth does not affect my decision to have no air in my BC for a beach entry. Either way I would still do a beach entry with no air in the BC for the reasons already discussed.

I have done my entries both ways, with a snorkel and no air in the BC (only during the 3R class) and with a regulator in my mouth and no air in the BC (my normal).

Remember we are talking strictly beach entry here so the water is not higher than shoulder level. Therefore the lack of buoyancy is really not an issue. If you dive under a wave or get hit, after it passes, you just stand up and breathe. If you have moved into deeper water while under the wave (you are now past the surf zone), just inflate the BC with the power inflator. Please note rock entries are different. Once I am in water where I can no longer touch the bottom I am out of the surf zone and I inflate my BC, lie back and put on my fins quickly and paddle further out (in case that rouge wave is planning on making an appearance). If I am not past the surf zone and I can no longer touch the bottom during the lull between waves, then I am heading back to shore and not diving anyway.

I can understand not wanting the added buoyancy of a filled BC when trying to go down/under a wave. But I'm not clear on the detriment of having a regulator in your mouth, except that it could be yanked out if one gets tumbled....

Here is the theory behind the recommendation by some of not entering with a regulator in your mouth. They argue that if you have a regulator in your mouth and get hit by a wave and tumbled, your first response will be to take a nice, big breath. Now we need to look at the dynamics of the situation for a moment. You take a breath while under the wave. Odds are you will do so just about the time the peak of the wave passes over you. So let’s say your depth gauge reads 8 feet as the wave passes over. The 1st stage will deliver air at the appropriate pressure for 8 feet. Now the wave passes and you are suddenly in 3 feet of water. You have just (without moving) gone up 5 feet, with the corresponding change in pressure and could potentially suffer a lung expansion injury or embolism.

That is the theory behind it. The 3Rs (rocks, rips and reefs) teaches to go in with a snorkel. That is probably good advice.

Personally I say, “And what good is a snorkel going to do me under water?”

While I hear their argument and agree it has merit, I personally enter the water with the regulator in my mouth, and mask on (contact lenses so I don’t want water splashed in the eyes) and breathing around the regulator. My plan if I get hit by a wave or dive under a wave, is to simply clamp my lips around the regulator and blow (remember I want to go down not up so I want to empty my lungs). If I do take a breath, I will try to keep it a very small sip and never close my airway. Remember we are not talking (I hope) minutes here, just the few seconds I need for the wave to pass over and for me to stand up again. If we are talking minutes, then I am pinned to the bottom or being tumbled by a very large wave and I should not have been (and probably won’t be) in the water in the first place. But stuff does happen and we all have seen the rouge wave come in to the beach. So if I take a small breath at only 25% or less of the lung capacity my lungs should be able to handle the expansion of the air when the depth rapidly changes by 4 to 6 feet. Given my max depth was under 15 feet (5 feet of standing water with a 10 foot wave passing over which would be the rouge wave previously discussed) or ½ ATA increase. So with the expansion of the air in my lungs, I would still only have 75% of lung capacity. Naturally, I can’t really estimate my own lung capacity and accurately regulate how much percentage wise I inhale in this situation so there is a risk. But I believe I can keep it well below what the air will expand and I don’t close my airway.

DISCLAIMER: Not a Dive Instructor, Physicist, Doctor or other qualified expert on the subject. In fact if you ask my wife I know nothing about anything. Please note the qualified experts recommend no regulator in the mouth when entering the water from a beach. The above is just my opinion and does not constitute advice. Every diver is responsible for their own dive decisions and I am just spouting off about what I do, which may not be the best solution.

 

[headhunter]

Ok, the combination of Regulator in or out of the mouth with no air in the BC is the question.

I really don’t see it as a combination. The decision to use a snorkel or have the regulator in your mouth is really unrelated to the air in or not in the BC question. Regulator in or out of the mouth does not affect my decision to have no air in my BC for a beach entry. Either way I would still do a beach entry with no air in the BC for the reasons already discussed.

I have done my entries both ways, with a snorkel and no air in the BC (only during the 3R class) and with a regulator in my mouth and no air in the BC (my normal).

Remember we are talking strictly beach entry here so the water is not higher than shoulder level. Therefore the lack of buoyancy is really not an issue. If you dive under a wave or get hit, after it passes, you just stand up and breathe. If you have moved into deeper water while under the wave (you are now past the surf zone), just inflate the BC with the power inflator. Please note rock entries are different. Once I am in water where I can no longer touch the bottom I am out of the surf zone and I inflate my BC, lie back and put on my fins quickly and paddle further out (in case that rouge wave is planning on making an appearance). If I am not past the surf zone and I can no longer touch the bottom during the lull between waves, then I am heading back to shore and not diving anyway.

Here is the theory behind the recommendation by some of not entering with a regulator in your mouth. They argue that if you have a regulator in your mouth and get hit by a wave and tumbled, your first response will be to take a nice, big breath. Now we need to look at the dynamics of the situation for a moment. You take a breath while under the wave. Odds are you will do so just about the time the peak of the wave passes over you. So let’s say your depth gauge reads 8 feet as the wave passes over. The 1st stage will deliver air at the appropriate pressure for 8 feet. Now the wave passes and you are suddenly in 3 feet of water. You have just (without moving) gone up 5 feet, with the corresponding change in pressure and could potentially suffer a lung expansion injury or embolism.

That is the theory behind it. The 3Rs (rocks, rips and reefs) teaches to go in with a snorkel. That is probably good advice.

Personally I say, “And what good is a snorkel going to do me under water?”

While I hear their argument and agree it has merit, I personally enter the water with the regulator in my mouth, and mask on (contact lenses so I don’t want water splashed in the eyes) and breathing around the regulator. My plan if I get hit by a wave or dive under a wave, is to simply clamp my lips around the regulator and blow (remember I want to go down not up so I want to empty my lungs). If I do take a breath, I will try to keep it a very small sip and never close my airway. Remember we are not talking (I hope) minutes here, just the few seconds I need for the wave to pass over and for me to stand up again. If we are talking minutes, then I am pinned to the bottom or being tumbled by a very large wave and I should not have been (and probably won’t be) in the water in the first place. But stuff does happen and we all have seen the rouge wave come in to the beach. So if I take a small breath at only 25% or less of the lung capacity my lungs should be able to handle the expansion of the air when the depth rapidly changes by 4 to 6 feet. Given my max depth was under 15 feet (5 feet of standing water with a 10 foot wave passing over which would be the rouge wave previously discussed) or ½ ATA increase. So with the expansion of the air in my lungs, I would still only have 75% of lung capacity. Naturally, I can’t really estimate my own lung capacity and accurately regulate how much percentage wise I inhale in this situation so there is a risk. But I believe I can keep it well below what the air will expand and I don’t close my airway.

DISCLAIMER: Not a Dive Instructor, Physicist, Doctor or other qualified expert on the subject. In fact if you ask my wife I know nothing about anything. Please note the qualified experts recommend no regulator in the mouth when entering the water from a beach. The above is just my opinion and does not constitute advice. Every diver is responsible for their own dive decisions and I am just spouting off about what I do, which may not be the best solution.

Melvin,

I was taught to use a snorkel in the surf zone and never put the regulator in my mouth for the reasons you mention. I remember hearing a couple of reports on a couple of different occasions about people embolizing when going through the surf zone. One report I remember is a group of 3 divers who all died this way on the same dive in Oxnard.

I believe the key in what you say above is to not close your airway. Exhaling when going under the wave seems to be an effective way of handling this.

I just made the switch to a long hose for my primary regulator with a bungied backup. So, I'm now only going to have my snorkel in a bellows pocket for the purpose "sightseeing" on a long surface swim and, of course, to show the lifeguards in Laguna that I have one. I'm going to use your "reg in mouth while exhaling" method. I think it makes sense.

By the way, I also wear contact lenses and usually keep one hand on my mask as I go through the surf, "just in case".

I hope to join you on a dive sometime soon, now that I'm back in the water again. It looks like David (dazedone) and I will be doing a dive at Redondo (Veteran's Park) this Saturday morning (time yet to be determined). I thought that this would be the logical next step after Catalina's Dive Park. I want to work my way back up to Christmas Tree Cove, which used to be one of my favorites.

Christian

 

[scubasean]

Ok, the combination of Regulator in or out of the mouth with no air in the BC is the question.



<snip...>

I personally enter the water with the regulator in my mouth, and mask on (contact lenses so I don’t want water splashed in the eyes) and breathing around the regulator.

I agree with this completely, and must have misunderstood you when you were agreeing with an earlier post that talked about not having your reg in your mouth...

Initially, I was thinking air is good to have in the B/C when entering, but see the wisdom in not doing so. I do believe that having the reg in my mouth is a good thing, especially if I need air...

Enjoy!

 

[headhunter]

I do believe that having the reg in my mouth is a good thing, especially if I need air...

What?!... You mean you actually want to be able to breathe when you need to?!

Some people are sooooo demanding.

Christian

 

[Charlie99]

...lot's of people enter with masks on and regs in their mouth, but I've heard about at least one diver that embolized as a result of breathing just as a wave descended.

Where did you hear about an embolism caused by breathing as a wave descended? This sounds like an old wive's tale.

Breathing in doesn't cause a problem. Keeping your airway closed as you ascend does. My recommendation is to keep your reg in your mouth and your airway open.

 

[scubasean]

What?!... You mean you actually want to be able to breathe when you need to?!

Some people are sooooo demanding.

Christian

Perhaps you missed where others advocate leaving the reg out during surf entry...

:banana: