General advice to new scuba divers: do not waste your money!

[L13]

As for the regulators, I don't totally agree when you said that a XTX50 or a G260 are "not necessary for most divers" and this is my main point of the discussion: if you go diving regularly or not, having a high performance regs (a lot of different brands produce them) will be the best option for you.

I doubt most divers could distinguish a well maintained budget reg from a "high performance" reg in a blind breathing test.

Unless you are a cold water diver, all the mainstream first stages will be indistinguishable by a recreational diver. For cold water, some of the expensive regulators are actually worse than some of the less expensive ones.

For second stages, a recreational diver may be able to distinguish them, but usually the difference they detect will be the quality of maintenance and tuning, not the underlying performance of the reg.

Until a diver starts pushing the envelope of recreational diving, maintainability, availability, and cost should be the dominant criteria for picking regs, not performance or features (other than port layout).

By the time a diver "needs" a higher end reg, they will know what they're specific needs are, and won't choose the wrong high-end reg that meets someone else's high end needs but not theirs.

90% of divers buy more reg than they need in their first reg. When a few do eventually need more, they find they bought the wrong "more" the first time.

 

[travisfull]

May I ask why you think regulators like xtx50 or G260 would be necessary for vacation divers who only dive within OW limits (<18m/60ft)? What are the technical differences between, say, a G260 and an R190 that would make the latter a worse option for such a diver?

I've never mentioned the R190; if you read my previous message I specified there are a lot of companies who does good regs, the XTX50 or G260 were mere examples I took from your previous message.
In terms of what look when choosing good regs I would say:
1. easy in maintenance: easy to find spare parts and shops who can do proper maintenance.
2. reliable in cold water (looking for metal components);
3. first stage in DIN of course;
4. High-flow exhaust valve
5. VIVA
6. balanced 1st stage

 

[L13]

1. easy in maintenance: easy to find spare parts and shops who can do proper maintenance.

This!!!

2. reliable in cold water (looking for metal components);

Very few divers do cold enough dives that this matters. All major reg manufactures use metal components. Many high end regs perform worse in cold than some mid range regs. If you know you need a cold water reg, get a cold water reg not a "high performance" reg.

3. first stage in DIN of course;

Depends on where you dive. This is a BAD idea if most of your dives are in the Caribbean, the US, or several other major dive areas unless you eventually get into tech diving. In Europe or similar, this is great advice.

4. High-flow exhaust valve

All major regs are more than adequate. This is just silly for a first reg.

5. VIVA

Nice, but not worth the money. One more thing to mess up for new divers, who often leave it in the wrong position.

6. balanced 1st stage

Hard to find a major reg that isn't.

 

[ginti]

I've never mentioned the R190;

I know, I mentioned it because it's a fairly cheaper option than the others; but it was just an example

if you read my previous message I specified there are a lot of companies who does good regs, the XTX50 or G260 were mere examples I took from your previous message.

I am perfectly aware; even in my post, the G260 was just an example

In terms of what look when choosing good regs I would say:
1. easy in maintenance: easy to find spare parts and shops who can do proper maintenance.
2. reliable in cold water (looking for metal components);
3. first stage in DIN of course;
4. High-flow exhaust valve
5. VIVA
6. balanced 1st stage

I don't usually go step by step because it looks like a defensive approach, and I don't like when discussions go that direction... but here, it's really the easiest way to go, do you agree? So, step by step:
1 - This is inconsistent with my experience; it is as easy to find spare parts for low- and mid-end products (for high-end ones, it is usually harder because nobody buys them, but we are not considering fancy titanium or carbon regs here). The central aspect that makes spare parts hard or easy to find is the brand itself and how to spread it (for instance, Apex was in the past not very common in the states - now the situation may have changed). Between an R195 and a G260, I have never found any difference.
2 - Most divers never dive in cold water; if they regularly do it, I agree - they need a suitable regulator.
3 - You can find a way to have DIN in any regulator.
4 to 6 -> These are primarily about comfort, not safety. So it is really a personal choice, nothing more than it... wouldn't you agree?

PS Where are you in Italy?

 

[L13]

1 - This is inconsistent with my experience; it is as easy to find spare parts for low- and mid-end products (for high-end ones, it is usually harder because nobody buys them, but we are not considering fancy titanium or carbon regs here). The central aspect that makes spare parts hard or easy to find is the brand itself and how to spread it (for instance, Apex was in the past not very common in the states - now the situation may have changed). Between an R195 and a G260, I have never found any difference.

This is mostly about brand rather than model choice. In some locations maintenance/parts are easier for some brands than others. Eliminate the brands that are difficult or expensive to maintain based on your location from consideration.

 

[travisfull]

I know, I mentioned it because it's a fairly cheaper option than the others; but it was just an example

I am perfectly aware; even in my post, the G260 was just an example


I don't usually go step by step because it looks like a defensive approach, and I don't like when discussions go that direction... but here, it's really the easiest way to go, do you agree? So, step by step:
1 - This is inconsistent with my experience; it is as easy to find spare parts for low- and mid-end products (for high-end ones, it is usually harder because nobody buys them, but we are not considering fancy titanium or carbon regs here). The central aspect that makes spare parts hard or easy to find is the brand itself and how to spread it (for instance, Apex was in the past not very common in the states - now the situation may have changed). Between an R195 and a G260, I have never found any difference.
2 - Most divers never dive in cold water; if they regularly do it, I agree - they need a suitable regulator.
3 - You can find a way to have DIN in any regulator.
4 to 6 -> These are primarily about comfort, not safety. So it is really a personal choice, nothing more than it... wouldn't you agree?

PS Where are you in Italy?

oh not defensive at all, list are just a way to give you some examples; don't worry, there is really not a problem here, I like talking about scuba diving gear having a frank discussion...there is always opportunity to change ideas.
1.Yes and no: a scubapro regulator (all of them are quite high standard) is very easy to be serviced almost everywhere. On the contrary, some Mares (like the XR25 or 28) is not the case even if they are high performance regs. On the apex example I agree with you.
2. That's the point: why should I buy a reg that may not be fit for colder water? I mean, even OWD dive in quarry during winter with 7-8 degrees..at least around here (Central Italy, so I answer the location question) they do.
3. yes you can find a way, or you just buy a DIN first stage.
4,5 and 6 - may be comfort but underwater comfort is security: comfort is a factor that avoid stress, keep a normal breathing rate and so on.

 

[ginti]

This is mostly about brand rather than model choice. In some locations maintenance/parts are easier for some brands than others. Eliminate the brands that are difficult or expensive to maintain based on your location from consideration.

This is what I meant

oh not defensive at all, list are just a way to give you some examples; don't worry, there is really not a problem here, I like talking about scuba diving gear having a frank discussion...there is always opportunity to change ideas.
1.Yes and no: a scubapro regulator (all of them are quite high standard) is very easy to be serviced almost everywhere. On the contrary, some Mares (like the XR25 or 28) is not the case even if they are high performance regs. On the apex example I agree with you.

Yes, this is what I said. So a cheap unbalanced Scubapro regulator would be easy to be serviced. Ergo, easy service is NOT an advantage of premium regulators - it is an advantage of some brands.

2. That's the point: why should I buy a reg that may not be fit for colder water? I mean, even OWD dive in quarry during winter with 7-8 degrees..at least around here (Central Italy, so I answer the location question) they do.

As I said before, I understand that what you said makes sense to you. But most divers will never go diving in cold waters. It is simply unattractive for the vast majority of divers. Just no reason to buy one.

3. yes you can find a way, or you just buy a DIN first stage

The R195 is Scubapro's unbalanced "cheap" regulator; you can buy it DIN in Italy. DIN is not a prerogative of premium regulators; this is just a fact

4,5 and 6 - may be comfort but underwater comfort is security: comfort is a factor that avoid stress, keep a normal breathing rate and so on.

The equivalence between comfort and security is only partially true; without arguing when it is not (quite often actually, especially in emergencies - read here, for example, but keep in mind it is the DIR forum), let me highlight that comfort is personal. You are assuming that everyone would be more comfortable with premium regulators. In my experience, people do not always perceive the difference, and when they do, it is so tiny that it does not play any role in general comfort. Therefore, 90% of divers I know prefer to buy cheap regulators and use them for an entire life (several hundred or sometimes even thousands of dives).

Anyway, my experience with regulators is really too small to go further with this topic, and I have nothing else to add I hope this discussion provided at least some helpful insights that you could develop better with people more experienced than me!

 

[L13]

4,5 and 6 - may be comfort but underwater comfort is security: comfort is a factor that avoid stress, keep a normal breathing rate and so on.

4 - Do you have an example of a regulator with noticeably less comfort due to the exhaust valve size?

5 - Only ScubaPro has regulators with a VIVA switch, are you claiming that all other brands are noticeably less comfortable? (Other brands have similar features, but aren't called VIVA). Are you claiming that only the ScubaPro models with VIVA are good choices for a first regulator?

6 - I doubt an average diver could tell the difference between a balanced and unbalanced first stage regulator when breathing from it with a mid-range second stage. Reading regulator reviews(take with a grain of salt), unbalanced regulators sometimes win for breathing comfort, for example the Mares Rover 2S in this review:
14 Best Scuba Regulators in 2023 | Complete Buyer’s Guide

 

[berndo]

Many high end regs perform worse in cold than some mid range regs.

Which ones are those?

 

[BoltSnap]

May I ask why you think regulators like xtx50 or G260 would be necessary for vacation divers who only dive within OW limits (<18m/60ft)? What are the technical differences between, say, a G260 and an R190 that would make the latter a worse option for such a diver?

I have G260, S600, R190, R195, C370 and others and there is definitely difference in performance between the R190/195 and the higher end regulators (ALL are tuned to mfg. specs). I have these regs. in my dive school's training equipment fleet and I get to play with them frequently. Myself and my students can tell the difference especially in more advanced courses going deeper than 20m and in more challenging conditions. I always make sure that they are all tuned properly but still there is difference in performance. The difference is more apparent when going deeper and/or working harder. Students who buy regulators later after they are certified go for the better regulators on their own after they have had the chance to try the different regs. in the course.