Garmin vs shearwater

[SKS22]

- you can export dives from the log on the Teric directly into the 3rd party dive log software of your choice. If you want to use, for example, Subsurface (a free dive log) with your Garmin, you have to download the dives to Garmin first, then export them, THEN import them into Subsurface. Because Garmin declined to cooperate with the Subsurface team and facilitate the ability for Subsurface to download directly from the Descent. I download directly from any of my Shearwater computers, via Bluetooth, directly into Subsurface. Often, during the boat ride back to the dock.

I prefer to use Subsurface over any manufacturer's proprietary dive log because, for one thing, I have used many different computers and expect to use more in the future and I want to have ONE dive log that contains ALL my dives, from all the different computers I have used. Subsurface gives me that. And two, I do not want all my dive log data stored by some company who could lose it or just choose to turn that service off or choose to start charging money for it, and me be left with no practical recourse and also no log of all my dives.

This choice always bothered me. Why try to lock us into a particular ecosystem? The Descent Mk2i is an absolutely fantastic piece of kit. Garmin doesn't need to resort to this sort of petty lock-in.

Now the choice bothers me even more. Garmin amended services available in the Explore App post facto. Now, they are playing with Connect, though not (currently) taking anything away from me (some say they removed features a year ago and reintroduced them in Connect+ but I cannot confirm that because I had not been using those features). Now I am wondering if they're going to try to monetize the Dive App next? Is that among the reasons they make taking my dives with me if I leave such a bother?

 

[stuartv]

This choice always bothered me. Why try to lock us into a particular ecosystem? The Descent Mk2i is an absolutely fantastic piece of kit. Garmin doesn't need to resort to this sort of petty lock-in.

Now the choice bothers me even more. Garmin amended services available in the Explore App post facto. Now, they are playing with Connect, though not (currently) taking anything away from me (some say they removed features a year ago and reintroduced them in Connect+ but I cannot confirm that because I had not been using those features). Now I am wondering if they're going to try to monetize the Dive App next? Is that among the reasons they make taking my dives with me if I leave such a bother?

Making your dive log data "captive" is not uncommon among the manufacturer-specific dive log apps.

I mean, why would they invest R&D resources into their application to add a feature to make it easy for you to leave them for another brand?

That said, credit to Garmin where credit is due. It's not that you can't leave and take your data with you. You can export it and then import it into Subsurface. I THINK. That's how I understand it, but I have never used a Garmin dive computer, so I don't know for sure.

I think they don't lock you in. They just make you go THROUGH them to get anywhere else.

As for future Garmin trends, what I have noted:

Before the first Descent came out, the Fenix (4? 5?) supported wearing it while scuba diving. Meaning, it was officially rated to take to depth (scuba diving depths and times). Somebody had the bright idea to write an app (a new "Activity"?) for it that would read the pressure sensor data in it and use that to calculate depth and therefore could calculate deco.

I.e. somebody developed a 3rd party "dive computer" app for the Fenix.

Garmin shut that down after not too long. I think the official reason was "Safety. The Fenix is not designed to be used for scuba diving and it is not safe to use it for that." Again, I could be misremembering the history.

But, not long after that the Descent came out.

It makes sense that Garmin would shut down people using the Fenix for scuba diving when they knew they had the Descent coming out and would want people to buy that to use for diving.

So, NOW... the Fenix 8 is available and it officially supports being used for scuba diving. But, with limitations similar to the Apple Watch. Notably, being limited to 40m/130'.

What is to come? I don't know.

It certainly would not surprise me if Garmin discontinued some or all of their Descent SKUs and added a subscription option to the Fenix series to replace those discontinued Descent SKUs.

Will they discontinue all the models of Descent? Well, probably not the X50i, but maybe all the watch-style ones?

Will they only discontinue Descent models that are on the "low end"?

Maybe only discontinue the Descent models that do not support air integration?

I don't know what they're going to do, but officially adding scuba diving to the Fenix 8 caught me by surprise and seems like it could be a significant clue in where they are going with their scuba support.

 

[Nick_Radov]

That said, credit to Garmin where credit is due. It's not that you can't leave and take your data with you. You can export it and then import it into Subsurface. I THINK. That's how I understand it, but I have never used a Garmin dive computer, so I don't know for sure.

You don't even have to "export" the data as such. You can connect any Garmin wearable device to a regular computer with the included USB cable and copy the dive log FIT files like a regular flash dive. It doesn't have to go through Garmin Connect at all. The file format is fully documented in their SDK. So from that perspective it's fairly open.

I think the concern above was about syncing Garmin devices to third-party dive log applications over Bluetooth without using a cable. That isn't documented or supported. Garmin might be doing something proprietary instead of using a standard Bluetooth file transfer profile but I don't know the details.

Garmin also has an Activity API to download FIT files that were already synced to Garmin Connect. But using it requires special permission and I think diving activities aren't included.

 

[stuartv]

You don't even have to "export" the data as such. You can connect any Garmin wearable device to a regular computer with the included USB cable and copy the dive log FIT files like a regular flash dive. It doesn't have to go through Garmin Connect at all. The file format is fully documented in their SDK. So from that perspective it's fairly open.

I think the concern above was about syncing Garmin devices to third-party dive log applications over Bluetooth without using a cable. That isn't documented or supported. Garmin might be doing something proprietary instead of using a standard Bluetooth file transfer profile but I don't know the details.

Garmin also has an Activity API to download FIT files that were already synced to Garmin Connect. But using it requires special permission and I think diving activities aren't included.

Thanks for the clarification on that.

But, in practical terms, that doesn't really make it any better - to ME. I can't sync my dives (outside of Garmin) via Bluetooth? I need a cable to sync directly from the dive computer? Can I even do that if I'm trying to sync to my phone or tablet?

Probably not, at least if we're talking about syncing to Subsurface. I suspect the Subsurface-mobile app will only sync using Bluetooth. You could definitely do it used a cable on a laptop/desktop computer.

Regardless needing a proprietary (I assume) cable to sync to something outside of Garmin is some serious 20th Century Weaksauce...

 

[Nick_Radov]

Thanks for the clarification on that.

But, in practical terms, that doesn't really make it any better - to ME. I can't sync my dives (outside of Garmin) via Bluetooth? I need a cable to sync directly from the dive computer? Can I even do that if I'm trying to sync to my phone or tablet?

Yes, you can do that using any phone or tablet as long as it supports USB host mode.

Probably not, at least if we're talking about syncing to Subsurface. I suspect the Subsurface-mobile app will only sync using Bluetooth. You could definitely do it used a cable on a laptop/desktop computer.

Regardless needing a proprietary (I assume) cable to sync to something outside of Garmin is some serious 20th Century Weaksauce...

Garmin wearable device USB cables are indeed proprietary. A regular USB-C port would take up too much volume in a wristwatch size device, and probably wouldn't stand up to corrosion in a marine environment. You'll need to bring the cable with you anyway if you plan to charge the device.

USB-C Clip Charging/Data Cable

www.garmin.com

 

[Belzelbub]

That said, credit to Garmin where credit is due. It's not that you can't leave and take your data with you. You can export it and then import it into Subsurface. I THINK. That's how I understand it, but I have never used a Garmin dive computer, so I don't know for sure.

I think they don't lock you in. They just make you go THROUGH them to get anywhere else.

Correct. And, IIRC, they don't prevent you from directly downloading from the DC. They just prevent direct BT download except through Garmin apps. You can use the charge/download cable to do this. I've found the cable method to be somewhat problematic for me, so just use the FIT file from Garmin Connect. It's really not that big of a deal IMO. I have a Shearwater as well, so use that as my primary. The Garmin is my backup. Here's my usual process.

During SI, I'll usually download from my Shearwater to Subsurface Mobile. This is a manual process of putting the DC into BT mode, and opening the app and initiating download. I'll update info such as tank size, gear, weights, but leave location blank.

Usually, while that is happening, or before, my Garmin MK2s connected via BT to my phone, and downloaded the latest dive info into Garmin Dive/Connect. This is automatic, and requires no intervention on my part.

Then, at the end of the day, I pull the FIT files from Garmin Connect to my laptop. I save them to a temporary folder that I've set up previously. I then open up Subsurface (sync'd with Cloud) and initiate a download from the Garmin file location. The dives will be updated with missing info. Subsurface dive log will have two profiles (one from each DC) for each dive. Heart rate and location data will be filled included now from the info in the FIT file.

It's really not that difficult.

 

[SKS22]

Correct. And, IIRC, they don't prevent you from directly downloading from the DC. They just prevent direct BT download except through Garmin apps. You can use the charge/download cable to do this. I've found the cable method to be somewhat problematic for me, so just use the FIT file from Garmin Connect. It's really not that big of a deal IMO. I have a Shearwater as well, so use that as my primary. The Garmin is my backup. Here's my usual process.

During SI, I'll usually download from my Shearwater to Subsurface Mobile. This is a manual process of putting the DC into BT mode, and opening the app and initiating download. I'll update info such as tank size, gear, weights, but leave location blank.

Usually, while that is happening, or before, my Garmin MK2s connected via BT to my phone, and downloaded the latest dive info into Garmin Dive/Connect. This is automatic, and requires no intervention on my part.

Then, at the end of the day, I pull the FIT files from Garmin Connect to my laptop. I save them to a temporary folder that I've set up previously. I then open up Subsurface (sync'd with Cloud) and initiate a download from the Garmin file location. The dives will be updated with missing info. Subsurface dive log will have two profiles (one from each DC) for each dive. Heart rate and location data will be filled included now from the info in the FIT file.

It's really not that difficult.

Fair play.

You're right that there is a workaround and other commenters above are correct that other companies have similar policies. My beef is with this quote from the subsurface website "Based on a specific request from Garmin, we will not be able to support BLE downloads on any platform." Subsurface Divelog It's petty to make (I think) the most expensive dive computers then deliberately inconvenience the customer with silly workarounds. (Workarounds that probably only exist thanks to EU law, so a tip of the hat to me pro-consumer friends across the Atlantic.)

Now I have three options:
1. Import all Garmin dives into subsurface using the csv list, which will shed a bunch of detail but will be quick for me.
2. Import Garmin dives one at a time into subsurface using the .fit conversion which only sheds a bit of detail that isn't too onerous to manually reenter -- a fine solution if I had done this every few dives over the years, but a huge pain if I move all the dives over now.
3. Accept that I didn't keep up with my log and let Garmin store the only copy forever.

Frankly, my plan was #3 until they started introducing/expanding subscriptions all over the ecosystem. Now I wish that I regularly transferred to subsurface from day 1 so that I can more conveniently walk if they take the paywall game too far. I'll just start porting them over a few at a time when I have nothing better to do. It's an annoying and inconvenient chore, but you're absolutely right in stating that "It's really not that difficult."

 

[mar2112]

I have a Garmin bike computer and their firmware is very buggy. It's like they release beta versions for general use. They introduce problems, like their notorious sensor disconnect problem, and can never figure out how to fix these problems. Also Garmin stops issuing firmware updates.

I have a Shearwater Perdix that's as old as my Garmin bike computer that still receives firmware updates. I've also never encountered a bug in the Perdix.

I would never use a Garmin product for something as critical as a dive computer.

 

[Pavao]

I have a Garmin bike computer and their firmware is very buggy. It's like they release beta versions for general use. They introduce problems, like their notorious sensor disconnect problem, and can never figure out how to fix these problems. Also Garmin stops issuing firmware updates.

I have a Shearwater Perdix that's as old as my Garmin bike computer that still receives firmware updates. I've also never encountered a bug in the Perdix.

I would never use a Garmin product for something as critical as a dive computer.

We’re discussing marginal differences between dive computers here, which I’ll say it again, shearwater better dive computer, garming better overall watch.

But bike computers??? Garmin is by far the better product, no comparison, not even close. And the vast majority of riders are on Garmins, as in the sample filed is enormous, your issues are definitely not common.

Btw, I’ll sell you a Wahoo bundle if you like.

 

[mar2112]

We’re discussing marginal differences between dive computers here, which I’ll say it again, shearwater better dive computer, garming better overall watch.

But bike computers??? Garmin is by far the better product, no comparison, not even close. And the vast majority of riders are on Garmins, as in the sample filed is enormous, your issues are definitely not common.

Btw, I’ll sell you a Wahoo bundle if you like.

You ever read the Garmin Edge forums? My experience is not that unusual.