Ft. Lauderdale 11/12 The Sea Empress AOW

[HarryWhisman]

Mr Vayu

As a new guy myself I've spent a lot more time reading posts on this sight than breathing compressed air and I'm certainly no scuba hero like some of the others here :icon_roll I've never dove in high seas with a bunch of sick people but I did do the AOW thing recently on a livaboard. (Mostly because the instructor was a babe) I also suck air like a 747 during takeoff so I "feel your pain" there.

I was with you until you said:

"Not only was the group a good source of air, it made things alot easier to deal with when things got bad."

I may be going out on a limb here but hey, new guy or not, let me fill you in on a fact of life:

The only good source of air when you're underwater is the tank on your back. Your only problem was you ran out of air. Dude--Don't do that no more!!!

I'm glad you're OK.

 

[Vayu]

Having fun would be great. Even with all this I had fun. The moon was really wild that night. I saw a puffer fish. For the record, I wasn't panicking at surface. I felt something I had never felt before and sucked it up and put the snorkel in my mouth. I orally inflated my bcd. I swam and tried to do as much for myself as I could knowing there was a problem but unable to self-diagnose. It was not my idea to leave everybody behind. I still feel like I could have dove here effectively as a buddy pair without the UFADP staff, but you must realize as an independently planned dive I would have never been close to this. I was under pressure to dive because this is my grade, my certification, and my love. Even the director of the program admitted to me that the instructors feel a pressure from the university not to cancel dives. I am responsible for my life and this is what it comes down to. Survival underlines all morality. I am not trying to place blame here.

Things can change very quickly. This is something that I have learned from and I encourage anyone to take from it what they can. I'll see you in the water.

-V

 

[AXL72]

======>"wouldn't be too happy if my buddy wanted to surface with 1200 psi left. that sounds like another few minutes of bottom time..."

Sweet Jeebus, Homey....rest assured that if I were your buddy and had blood coming out of my nose, ears, and booty underwater, I would not ruin your dive by giving you the thumbs up if I had 1200 or even 800 psi left:05: . I would not want to get your panties all up in a bunch and a quick knock on my head by your 1200 or 800 psi full tank after getting on the boat.

Holy cow!

Vayu, what were you thinking? Don't you know that you don't come up until you're at 700 psi (really 300 psi wink wink) or unless your dead so as not to piss off your buddy and group. [THIS IS SARCASM BY THE WAY]

Man oh man what a world.

BUT ON A NON-SARCASTIC NOTE: Its good you survived Vayu. There is a very good hand signal for situations like this. Its a two step signal that you and a buddy need to agree with before giving to the rest of the group. First you give the middle finger up to the instructor or whoever...then you give the thumbs up. Yes, it is an ancient hand signal rarely taught in dive classes these days. Quite a shame actually, cause it does communicate most effectively what your intentions are

I think allot of people would get freeaked out if instructors did not follow the plan and acted as if they are ignoring you. Like someone else said, you are a certified diver. Next time, head up with your buddy.

 

[HowardE]

I just wanted to hopefully wrap some things up here, because again...

I didn't want to sounds harsh, macho, or overly-confident.

Vayu. I hope you (and maybe some other newly certified divers) learned a few things, by reading what has been said here...

1) DON'T RUSH headstrong into untested situations. Be conservative, especially since you are taking your life in YOUR OWN hands, EVERY TIME you dive.

2) AOW should be taken more seriously by everyone involved. Can I make AOW a more MEANINGFUL "course" where people LEARN more? No... I am just a diver.

I got involved in this post, since it occurred in my own "backyard" in FLL.

If anyone was insulted, or offended by what I said... well... really... that's OK... This thread has some good positive tips and advice.

I would also like to thank those who PM'd me their support of my statements... I may say contraversial things, but it did spark intelligent conversation with regards to this incident.

Good Luck Vayu with your continued education in diving. I think that you'll eventually look back on this event as a great learning experience, and you'll probably NEVER FORGET it... Maybe even some day, you'll relate this story to your dive students.

 

[JRScuba]

Howarde,

You seem to know alot about the situation. Thank you for all your wisdom. I disagree with what you have said. I must remind you that you were not in the water. Please refrain from mixing bias and speculation with fact. I am a man with little sympathy for ignorance. I will match you anyday.

-V

There was no need for this remark. This board, as you know by now, has people from all walks of life with a variety of opinions. When you post here or discuss anything with someone you open yourself for criticism as well as sympathy. EVERYONES opinion counts, as it is formed only by the information given. I for one would like to hear the other side of the story. As part of it is in the link I posted on this post.

" I will match you anyday " Do you know what that sounds Like?

Not very nice, because you did not like his opinion that was speculated from the information on your posts.

Yepper 2 sides to the story.

I am glad that the situation ended how it did. No one hurt, everyone alive and walking ( as you did on the dock ) and hope that your physical problem ends up to be nothing.

Take Care and DIVE SAFELY

 

[AXL72]

Please refer to the "bickers" from "The Last Dive. Nothing wrong with competition, holding your head up high, and sticking up for yourself. Criticism goes both ways. If you think that Vayu was "trash" or "smack" talking" and that homey may have been offended, I assure you that Homey sounds like he has thick enough skin to take it as good as he dished it Please also remember the phrase, "Sticks and stones..."

I think all Vayu was saying was that he is just as good as Homey. I think that Vayu was simply and rightfully standing up for himself and all those with a passion to get AOW with less than 25 dives. It will make him better sooner in life.

Homey thinks Vayu is inexperienced
Vayu thinks Homey is full of crap, vanity, squishey's, and doughnuts.

Where is the foul?

 

[baitedstorm]

Whoa!!! I just read this whole thread and the other thread linked to this. First of all let me start by applauding you V for posting this thread, very few people would have. It tells me a couple of things about your situation. First of all, you need acceptance on your actions and want to make sure the blame doesn’t lie totally with you, so news flash, that makes you human! Judging ONLY by what you posted (completely ignoring the views of others here) it truly sounds like you got a little more then just anxious down there. When you told the instructor you had reached the psi they indicated for notification and then they did nothing, you had every right to be concerned (once again, human!)

I have had dives where the divers kept coming up to me showing me their air pressure with "that look" in their eyes. Me, as a seasoned diver, knows that they have plenty of air to stay longer and still be back on the boat with 500psi, but if the divers perception is different, and I get "the look" ,there's a pretty darn good chance I'm thumbing the dive in order to avoid a possible full on freak out later. Going back to basic training here, remember guys, perception of danger is just as dangerous as the actually danger.

Moving right along. I know the wreck you dove extremely well. She's an excellent site for beginners and I promise if you give her another go-round on a day with prime conditions, she'll hook you into her magical powers and introduce you to Baby.

I'm no doctor, nor do I play one on televisions, but it sure does sound like you had a panic attack. Don't dismiss the possibility, and know if you did, it's ok.... once again, it only makes you human. Judging by what you posted, your perception of the dive was you were clearly going to run out of air and no one seemed to give a damn, seas are rough and your probably wondering if your safer to stay with the group then to surface alone with only a buddy, both divers lacking the experience that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.... well Darlin' in my book, those are pretty clear grounds for full on freak out fest (which you didn't do so right there, your ahead of the game)

My suggestion to you, if you plan on diving again, is to remember that you are a certified diver at this point. You decide who, what, when and where. Make sure to use your voice, even when it's not the coolest thing to do. If you don't feel comfortable with a dive, don't do it.

On a lighter note, some really great things came out of this experience, in my opinion. First of all, you lived to tell your story so that others can learn from it. You also now have a voice, meaning that because of what happened to you, I would bet that next time your going to dive and your not feeling things are going the way they should, hell or high water, your going to speak up and let your opinion be known (for the record, I got my voice on dive 20, so I'm with you on this one). This has also been a great thread of debate, my favorite type. I love to see our SB divers thinking things out, I for one could have done without the challenging and name calling, but then again, that human factor comes back into play.

Just remember, not everyone is going to agree with you all of the time, having the courage to post such a thread deserves an applause. It's certainly not easy to put yourself in a situation you know you'll be scrutinized over it and I must say, for the most part, you handled yourself quiet well.

I look forward to your future posts!

 

[mgersch@cox.net]

Vayu
Glad to hear you are OK.
Its been a week now since the incident. Are you feeling better now?
Objectively reading the posts, it certainly sounds like a panic attack, which would explain the chest pain. However, the chest pain from a panic attack would have resolved later that evening after you calmed down at the hospital. If you continued to have chest pain this would suggest either an overexpansion lung injury (maybe you were holding your breath as you were concerned you were running out of air) or muscular injury (as you were in high seas and could have made some strange muscular movements). I agree that DCS certainly sounds unlikely as does cardiac chest pain in a 20 healthy 20 year old "mack daddy."

As for advice from the dive I agree with what almost everyone had been saying.
-1. When boat diving in the ocean, always, always carry a saftey sausage.
-2. When I dive I also carry a lift bag, if you and your buddy deciede to end the dive seperate from the group, you have a marker to surface under (boat traffic can be a real problem).
-3. If you are concerned about air, don't try to swim at depth. You can always safely ascend to 15 feet do a nice saftey stop. Then come up to the surface. If the plan is to swim back to the boat, you can rest for a few minutes, then you can take a bearing on the boat, figure out where your are, drop down to 5 or 10 feet, and swim back to the boat (your last several hundred PSI will last a very long time on the surface).
-4. If you are having a medical emergency, you should not attempt to swim back to the boat, just inflate your BC and wave your dive light wildly at the boat. They'll get the idea and come pick you up.

One more question. What was going on with your buddy? Why did your buddy not decide to go up when you signalled up? Why were you buddy breathing with the instructor and not your buddy? It sounds like you didn't have a very good buddy? Or was the instructor you buddy. In which case you still didn't have a good buddy.

Glad it all ended ok
-M

 

[PerroneFord]

One more question. What was going on with your buddy? Why did your buddy not decide to go up when you signalled up? Why were you buddy breathing with the instructor and not your buddy? It sounds like you didn't have a very good buddy? Or was the instructor you buddy. In which case you still didn't have a good buddy.
-M

From his posts, it seemed clear that he and his buddy were using air at a similar rate. What is the point of buddy breathing when both divers are low on gas? This is one of the big problems in my opinion, with gas management in the recreational arena. "Getting back on the boat with 500psi" is a hugely ineffective method of gas management when things don't go according to plan late in the dive. Diving thirds, or rock-bottom or any other scheme where allowances are made for emergencies, underwater problems, sudden loss of gas, and which takes the SAC rates of both parties into account would have been prudent.

Or, he could have adamantly turned the dive at 1800psi and none of this would likely have happened. At least not to him. Though it seems clear other students would still have gotten themselves into trouble from the actions of those leading the dive.

 

[markfm]

Interesting thread.
Best I can tell, having just done AOW in July, at least PADI doesn't require a night dive -- in some places, especially if the students have rolled right in from OW, people will do something like Peak Buoyancy. Personally, I'm one of those who wanted to get some diving in before AOW, did about 25 before it, so Peak would not have been worthwhile (I'd really concentrated on trim and buoyancy doing my own early dives), but is definitely a "mellower" specialty for those who haven't had a chance to do much diving yet, and can accelerate the learning process in that area.

The PADI Adventures in Diving Manual discusses site familiarization (In my class, where we did Night, we did a familiarization dive the afternoon before the night dive, even though it is a popular site, most of the folks had been there before.) Yes, there's an "out" in that it also mentions the possibility of diving with a guide or buddy, but during a class, as a student I would go "hmmm, I don't know this location..." (In my PADI OW it was drummed home, repeatedly, not to do "trust me" dives. )

Then there's the lovely yellow Warning symbol in the book, the one saying to night dive when conditions are good. Conditions that might be workable during the day might be too much of a stretch at night. It calls out surf and surge, but if the seas are rough enough so that there's barfing on the way out, that would qualify.

When we did our AOW night dive, there was at least one DM, or DM candidate, for every buddy pair. If the dung was hitting the oscillator, just plain time to thumb it (and that includes if I have concern about not following plan, especially gas related), I would signal my buddy, and the DM, and that's it -- no need to chase after instructors, especially if it's been done once, that you've hit your turn point. Likewise I was responsible for knowing where I was -- topography and compass (the familiarization part) -- so wasn't following an Instructor blindly.

At least in my class, it was explicit that we were in normal buddy pairs. There were multiple instructors, and DMs, around, but we weren't diving in a herd. It was stressed that we were certified divers, responsible for the basics, and the pros were there to help us in sampling these new areas. Low air, thumbing for stress or other problems, whatever, were to be our call.

Gas management is fun I was an air hog, still am, though definitely improving. We did deep/wreck during the day. Turn point was set before entry. When I reached that point I signalled, went to the line, dived the plan. That others could stay down longer didn't hurt my head in the slightest, nor did it bother my instructors. The trick was I accepted personal responsibility.

You might want to take a look for the book "Certified Divers Handbook" -- it's available on Amazon, and other places. I got one right after OW -- a wealth of information, provides a bit of different perspective from normal training material.

Best of luck -- it sounds like a real learning experience.