Frog Kick VS Modified Flutter

[tursiops]

I must be doing a scissor kick then. Works pretty good actually.

The propulsion from a non-frog fin kick comes mostly from the top side of the fin, the part you use when you are kicking forward, as if you were kicking a football. If you stop that kick at the midline -- i.e., do a scissor kick -- you are wasting much of your power. That's why a lot of fins are vented, to allow the return stroke to have as little obstruction as possible. For a frog kick, it is the bottom of the fin doing the work, squeezing the water out between the two fins as they come together. So frog-kicking fins are stiffer. Floppy, soft fins work tolerably well for flutter kicks, but are quite poor at frog kicks. Since many use their fins for BOTH kinds of kicks (although possibly not on the same dive), the fin design is a compromise...but tends to be stiffish and have a fair amount of surface area.

 

[BlueTrin]

Get in a pool in swim fins, lay on your back w/ the kickboard under your head, and practice your modified frog. You can do back-kick that way too but you'll need to have the board under you butt rather than head, or at least I do.

The only problem with practicing reverse kick that way is: it works too well, quite unlike like doing it in longer fins and scuba gear.

Similarly, using an inflated drysuit with a closed valve, without any equipment and no fins, you can practice back kicking at the surface. (Probably want to do that in a shallow place with supervision)

I have not tried using a float in a pool without fins though.

 

[rongoodman]

I've no idea what a "modified flutter" could possibly be: bicycle kick?

Modified flutter is a bent-knees flutter, either from the knees or just using the ankles.

 

[Gandalf-the-Diver]

Where I grew up, "flutter kick" is crawl kick: front or back, "scissor kick" is sidestroke w/o fins, "frog kick" is breaststroke, and "dolphin kick" is butterfly. "Modified frog" is the bent-knees, feet-only (-mostly) version of the breaststroke kick, and I've no idea what a "modified flutter" could possibly be: bicycle kick?

Flutter kick w/o raising any more silt than a ray would raise (adjusted for size), is perfectly doable; you just need a) open water, b) trim, c) ankle stretch, and d) proper technique. As in: "bicycle kick done wrong" ain't gonna cut it.

Your descriptive words on what each kick is, is spot on. A modified flutter, has bent knees, and it is just your fins / feet that flutter.

 

[Gandalf-the-Diver]

You'll need the frog kick, though, as it's the foundation for the back kick and helicopter turns. (It's hard to imagine how you're currently doing helicopter turns without it.)

I find with my knees bent, and feet poised for a mod flutter; my feet can "flutter" in such a direction that I can pivot in position, in either direction. No frog kicking is required to perform the maneuver.

 

[Wibble]

When I did fundies, flutter = knees bent 90 degrees, straighten leg. Mod flutter was more ankle than knee; frog-kick is the breaststroke one; mod-frog is frog kicking from the ankles only (very useful in confined spaces); back-finning is using the sides of the fins and your calves to go backwards; helicopter turn was one leg frog, the other backfinning.

The other one wasn't mentioned Easier to call that scissor kick as both legs flap up and down kicking the silt up, etc.

 

[rongoodman]

I find with my knees bent, and feet poised for a mod flutter; my feet can "flutter" in such a direction that I can pivot in position, in either direction. No frog kicking is required to perform the maneuver.

Without a back kick on one side or the other you aren't pivoting, you're swimming forward in a tight circle.

 

[Ayisha]

I find with my knees bent, and feet poised for a mod flutter; my feet can "flutter" in such a direction that I can pivot in position, in either direction. No frog kicking is required to perform the maneuver.

I think I know what you mean. Before I did Fundies, I had my own way of doing a helicopter turn, which was just a frog kick with one foot. It was enough to rotate me in either direction.

When I did Fundies, it didn't matter that I could pivot from point A to point B as asked. I had to learn how to do the frog kick with one foot, followed by a backward kick with the other foot, signalling the correct direction I would go.

Once I got the hang of it, it was pretty easy. It just takes some specific feedback and practice. My back kick became stronger after that as well.

And yeah, the DIR flutter is completely different from a typical flutter kick, which is also known as a scissor kick. There are great videos of various propulsion that have been posted in the past.

Good luck!

 

[boulderjohn]

a typical flutter kick, which is also known as a scissor kick

Known by whom?

 

[Ayisha]

Known by whom?

The posters above in various parts of the world have already shown that the terms are often used interchangeably, but I knew you would ask.

A quick search reveals these common uses:

Fin with Finesse - Finning Techniques Explained - Newsletter

Scissor Kick​

"For many, finning starts out with the trusted scissor kick or flutter kick".

Proper Fin Kicking Technique

"Flutter kick- also referred to as scissor kick".