Free Speech and Moderation: from Filmmaker Rob Stewart dies off Alligator Reef

[Doc Ben]

Without knowing or trust, and I'm sure he has one, I'm content to treat him as the Internet stalker he appears to be.

Your going out on a big limb calling me an Internet stalker. Be careful what you say. And if your going to apply your so-called standards, then you should reveal all the members personal names they gave upon signing up.

I have been censored here. My free speech has been deleted and restricted, even when not in breach of the ToS, numerous times.

So do you call him an "Internet stalker" now. Glad to see someone else speak up.

Sorry guys, but it does seem the back room chatter you engage in, clearly does steer the direction and outcome of thread conversations. From my perspective, you do not successfully act in an impartial manner all the time, and the fair decision process that is it place, seems to get overridden by the people doing the front end moderation.

BINGO

Another fault in the mod participating in thread situation, is that they still have mod access to user post edits and deletes in the thread, giving them far too much insight as a participant.

The MODS have personal info on members that the rest of us don't. And a few are now using it to attack.

 

[rossh]

I have to weigh in here as well... Ross debates by hurling epithets rather than using logic or facts. Name calling isn't allowed, not even if you're RossH. We've been asked by Dr. Mitchell to not delete his attacks, as they show who RossH is, but we can't accommodate that request. In a twist of irony, Dr. Mitchell's nonaggressive responses to RossH endeared him to staff to the point that we invited him to be a moderator.

Yes, RossH is a textbook case of a POV warrior. He brings up his ideology in threads that have nothing to do with it and since they are OT, we remove them. However, much of his moderation comes under name calling and trolling.

Hi Pete,


I'm often the one at center of that topic and discussion, because most others have questions for me about the science or theories involved.... hence the POV warrior that you incorrectly attributed about me. Of course, this thread is about discussing the censoring of ones POV.

So to be criticized for having a POV on matters of theory, science, physics, procedures, etc, and then having SB to delete and restrict it, would be an example of "restricted speech", and clearly against the Free speech mantra being pushed here.


I avoid talking about people as much as possible - I'm far more interested in talking facts and science. If that turns out to be focused on one other persons opposing views, then so be it... but I flatly reject your assertion that I'm "hurling epithets". I clearly do not "call people names", or any other kind of childish nonsense. I have never trolled and always post under my name (unlike many others here who do quietly attempt to aggravate the arguments).

So Pete, your comments above about me are not accurate, and I reject them outright.



*************

But the observation I made above still applies - I have been censored here. My free speech has been deleted and restricted, even when not in breach of the ToS, numerous times.

Which is directly against this notion of Free speech and accepting of opposing views.

Cheers.
.

 

[RainPilot]

You see, here's part of the problem. We as mods are restricted from talking about mod actions in the interests of not shaming users. However, those users have no such qualms.

@rossh i personally have edited MANY of your posts to remove blatant attacks on people, not their ideas. You have called people liars, charlatans and much much worse. Of course, now that they are gone you look like an angel.

If you really want to play this game, remember I still have access to every deleted post and edited version you have put up. I won't post our private conversations but your original posts were put out into the world.

Gathering them into a Greatest Hits thread would be a lot of work but if you want to claim unfair moderation I'm happy to put the time in.

But.

That's not what we are about. Instead we will just suck up the abuse and the untruths and continue to try make this a better board for the vast majority of users. For everyone reading this board, they are grown up enough to know there's two sides to most every story

 

[Diver0001]

The MODS have personal info on members that the rest of us don't. And a few are now using it to attack.

Interesting thought. There are only two bits of information a moderator can access that a normal user cannot.... The IP addresses where someone is posting, which can help in roughly locating them and an email address, which normally doesn't provide much information, if any.

 

[Wookie]

Your going out on a big limb calling me an Internet stalker. Be careful what you say. And if your going to apply your so-called standards, then you should reveal all the members personal names they gave upon signing
up.

Actually, I went outside to find out who you are. I did not use any moderation tools, and am not 100% that you are who I think you are. As a moderator, I would never use your private info (quite frankly, I don't even know if I have access to it) or anyone else's. Still waiting to know your agenda.....

 

[rossh]

The MODS have personal info on members that the rest of us don't. And a few are now using it to attack.

Yes, I have been on the receiving end of this numerous times. Parts of deleted posts turn up in quoted text. Edits and revisions that I made in a timely manner, turn up later on in quotes...

I've had one on one PM discussions with various mods, only to find that same info turn up elsewhere, and used against me.

I have made edits to my own diagrams to correct for omissions, only to be harassed because my arch enemy wasn't able to capture it fast enough to make trouble with it.

You see, here's part of the problem. We as mods are restricted from talking about mod actions in the interests of not shaming users. However, those users have no such qualms.

Brendon, I think you do a good job at being a mod - fair and even handed, much more than some others around here. You should crack the whip on a few of the others. You did help me one time with smoothing out a few posts, until one of the less than fair mods got me kicked out of the thread..

But you also wanted to talk privately, for which I have no compulsion to be guarded in my comments about the truth of the conversation. I talk very direct in private posts - no restrictions or censorship of free speech in the PM.


.... then you go and blow it with this:

@rossh i personally have edited MANY of your posts to remove blatant attacks on people, not their ideas. You have called people liars, charlatans and much much worse. Of course, now that they are gone you look like an angel.

If you really want to play this game, remember I still have access to every deleted post and edited version you have put up. I won't post our private conversations but your original posts were put out into the world.

Gathering them into a Greatest Hits thread would be a lot of work but if you want to claim unfair moderation I'm happy to put the time in.

So your really going to abuse the privilege you have as a mod to access private information and personal conversations, to make a shame piece...... Wow.


As for editing my posts... most of it was minor changes of context - not the message content itself... changing stuff like the direct "your theory" to the abstract "the theory". Most of it was trivial adjustments that fooled no-one.


**************

But this thread is titled "Free speech and Moderation", and the SB mods are presenting themselves as models of perfection, with a perfect track record. Clearly some of the time, that is not true. My experience is the mod position is occasionally, getting abused with the access and control they wield, to favor an outcome or the views of the people involved..


Cheers.
.
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Edit: 2 hours later...edited to correct Brendon's name.

 

[RainPilot]

So your really going to abuse the privilege you have as a mod to access private information and personal conversations, to make a shame piece...... Wow.

Reading is fundamental Ross. I do NOT have access to ANY pm on this board except those I am a participant in. I said I would NOT quote those.

As to the deleted posts, let me see if I have this straight.

1. You post in public forums.
2. Those posts are deleted for ad hominem attacks and TOS violations.
3. You complain there was nothing wrong with those posts.
4. When I raise the possibility of reinstating those posts, which according to you were unfairly deleted, it’s a shame piece.
5. You completely ignore the part where I said I would not be making any post resurrections.

 

[StefinSB]

Not only his opinion. You are the type of user that makes people generally want to avoid internet forums; argumentative, aggressive, self centered and offering little in the way of relevant substance, all of which with an undercurrent of anger. What actually surprises me is that you would conduct yourself online like this when some of your patients may be able to discern by your postings who you are. Perhaps they already know this about you but speaking for myself, in the interests of my career I've learned not to showcase large amounts of negative emotions and generalized frustrations with the world around me in public internet forums for the most part. It was a process, of course, but a valuable process that I would recommend to you -- or anyone who posts a lot online.


I can only speak for myself but I would be fine with you leaving if you decided to do so. You will, of course, not be forced to leave by the mods unless you consistently violate the TOS. You have freedom of speech on this forum to a degree. Freedom of speech is, as you have noticed, not unlimited here. There are forums for that but it takes a VERY thick skin to even try participating there. If you feel more comfortable with that then by all means, please go there. For the same reason that most sports are played with a referee, most internet forums are played with a moderator. There are rules of conduct. There has to be or it will degenerate into bickering. If you don't like the rules then that's fine. Nobody is forcing you to participate.

I should make perfectly clear that it is not a requirement for participation on this site that the moderators like you. Many sites are moderated like that. This one is not. Scubaboard is moderated with as even of a hand as moderators can manage. The size of the community helps too. There are well over 200,000 users here and moderators don't personally know everyone. Everyone is welcome to participate and moderation is usually focused on the TONE of the discussion, not the content. Off topic posts are often removed in order to maintain as much value as possible to the threads that are running but moderators have strict policy of not "thought policing" individual users' posts.

Given the popularity of the site I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that this style appeals to more people than it repulses. However, in a community this size you can never make everyone happy all of the time. Users do get frustrated and leave. That's sometimes very regrettable but it's also unavoidable. Moderators do maintain a dialogue behind closed doors to learn from mistakes (and yes, moderators do makes mistakes like anyone else)... on the whole I would say that most users find the moderation necessary and they find it fair..... If you don't, that's fine. You are welcome to your opinion.

Unfortunately in exactly the way some people go to a hockey game and spend more time yelling at the referee than they spend watching the hockey, we have users on the board -- like you -- who do the same. That's fine too. you have a right to do that. However, just like the person at the hockey game who screams at the referee the whole time (a) the hockey doesn't get any better because of it and (b) people around you start to get tired of it. That's your choice. If you don't stop then moderators won't make you stop unless it's a TOS violation but you can be sure that some of it will be filtered out in order to keep threads as on topic as can be expected.

The way you formulate your posts it would appear as if you believe that your presence on Scubaboard is so valuable that moderators should start running the forum the way you think it should be run. I think it's clear to everyone except you that you are mistaken. So all in all you are welcome to stay and you are welcome to leave if you do not believe this site is what you are looking for. You can choose to live with the manner in which this site is moderated or you can choose to leave. Staying and incessantly moaning about it, however, is illogical and does nobody, including yourself, any favors.

R..

Diver0001 for the win.

 

[The Chairman]

I avoid talking about people as much as possible

Rubbish. This is simply not true and you have impugned Dr. Mitchell's integrity over and over again and constantly call him names. We don't censor your POV, but we do censor your loutish attempts to bully him and call names. It's one thing to have a POV, yet quite another to be a POV Warrior, inserting that POV in threads that have nothing to do with it. You've pretty much destroyed your credibility in these threads. It's embarrassing to watch you do it over and over again, but you refuse to learn. You possess one of the highest Reported post counts on the board, if not the highest.

 

[Storker]

For the benefit of those not familiar with the rossh trainwrecks:

On numerous (EDIT: virtually countless) occasions, one person has accused another thread participant of ulterior motives, dishonesty, fakery and lies. The person who was accused is a highly respected, publicly employed scientist. In science, lies and fakery is the deadliest sin there is (quite unlike politics or advertising, but I'm digressing). Thus, accusing a scientist of lying, fakery, undisclosed conflict of interest or ulterior motives is the ultimate personal attack. It's an attack on the scientist's integrity, their most valuable asset in their professional life.

It seems as if one of the participants in this thread still - after repeated moderation and counselling - is totally unable to comprehend this rather simple fact.