Fourth Diver this year dies at Gilboa

[MikeFerrara]

These people did not even no they had a free flow how is mid water training going to help? They first needed to be comfortable in deep dark cold water that was there problem. They were so over come with being cold and in dark water they did not have a clue.

Not having a clue is a problem.

You are not going to get anyone ready for this in an OW class unless it takes twenty OW dives in various conditions and two months to complete.

An OW course that teaches free flow management does not have to be a long class and it does not prepare anyone for deep diving. Deep dive training that again revisits the management of those problems in context does.

The real problem is charters let people with OW cards and six dives go on dives like this but I know it is all the agency. I saw a woman with sixteen dives allowed to dive the Eber Ward in 135’ of water with a good current if she died who’s fault is that?

16 dives? You can have an AOW cert after 9 dives. Another 3 dives (the AOW deep dive counts) and you have the coveted deep diver certification and you're good to go for 130 ft. We're up to 12 dives now and the industry has determined that it's enough. Divers diving beyond their abilities in a problem but I don't see why a charter would be responsible. I prefer a charter to be more like a taxi. If you got the money honey you got a ride. The charter can drive the boat and leave my diving to me.

 

[trucker girl]

I really wish you guys would quit arguing over training standards. That has no bearing on this thread- go start another thread (or go post in an already existing thread- your choice). There are some very good on-topic posts and it's really frustrating to have to skim through all the whining that has NOTHING TO DO with the topic.

A lady died last week and, thus far, they can't figure out why.

Obviously, she was alone. That certainly warrants discussion- but I don't think arguing about insta-buddies or PADI's inferiority is warranted. I'm thinking that her husband was probably NOT an insta-buddy and... do we even know what agency? I really don't think it matters.

Even though the sulfer layer could be considered off-topic (not by me- just for the sake of covering my bases, here), it is at least about Gilboa, the location of the incident. How it used to be at Gilboa compared to how it is now is legitimate conversation. Insisting that PADI sucks, isn't. IMO.

Thank you, BubblesUp, for posting the links to the articles.

 

[trucker girl]

And do we know how many dives she had? Until more facts are known, the arguments don't belong in this thread, IMO.

I respectfully bow out of the conversation.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Also I am not saying the mid water free flow idea is bad I have students do there mask removal and clear mid water. It is just not a fix all and there is a lot broken besides the agencies. Not sure what the experience level or certs of the divers with the free flow problem at Gilboa were but AOW is not enough and they should be required to have a redundant air source (which I thought Mike did require) and know how to use it.

You are all right a free flow is not at all a big deal and can be handled very easily.

There is no one thing that fixes it all. Even with training and practice, you could end up with one too many problems and fail to manage the situation. So...the more you can manage, the better off you are. Without the training and practice, though, the failure is almost a given. We get lucky because on most dives we just don't have to manage any problems. Lets face it. It doesn't take much knowledge or skill to swim in circles for a while and climb back out. That makes the safety record look pretty good and the agencies do a good job of taking credit for something that isn't any of their doing. If we look at dives where problems do occure though the failure rate starts looking much worse.

According to the standards of most agencies, AOW is enough to be diving on the deep side of Gilboa. Most recreational agencies do NOT require or even teach the use of an redundant air source for dives above 130 ft. By allowing AOW certified divers to dive the deep side, Mike is in complete compliance with indusrty accepted practices.

Without the training to use it in an emergency a redundant breathing source probably won't even help. You could put them all in manifolded doubles or hang more tanks off them and they would just have more regs, hoses and knobs than they know what to do with.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Even though the sulfer layer could be considered off-topic (not by me- just for the sake of covering my bases, here), it is at least about Gilboa, the location of the incident. How it used to be at Gilboa compared to how it is now is legitimate conversation. Insisting that PADI sucks, isn't. IMO.

Thank you, BubblesUp, for posting the links to the articles.

Speaking only for myself I have never stated that PADI sucks. I have outlined specific points directly from their training standards and what I think is wrong with them. I don't think it's so good but others are free to disagree.

 

[Barracuda2]

I've been there when there has been as many as 500. I'd say an average weekend day is probably close to 200 hundred.

On the video they have what their yearly visitors is, I want to say it is 20,000 anybody that has seen the video have a better memory.

I'm late coming to this thread. Been out of town for a week. I produced the video for Gilboa on pure speculation due to the number of divers that show up there every year. On December 31, Mike will have anyheres from 15,000 to 17,000 waivers in his files; that means that number of "first timers" for the year because on the form are 10 more spots for signitures for repeat visits. My thoughts were that if 8 to 10% of these divers purchased a video to remember their experience, it would be worth the time, expense, and effort to put this program together. I don't believe there is a quarry in the country that has that kind of numbers. Diving by its nature is a risk, so when you combine that risk aspect with total numbers of participants, obviously there will be a higher "problem" probability. When deer hunting season kicks in around our region, more hunters are accidentally shot and killed during that time than any other. More drivers are killed and injured on the highways during June-August simply because more drivers are on the road. The quarry is not to blame; Mike is not to blame. He does everything he can to minimize the built-in risk factor associated with diving. My $.02

 

[scubagrrl06]

Ok, I've skipped over all the agency bashing threads. Did anyone go or hear anything more about the press conference yesterday? Has anything future been discovered about why this woman died?

 

[wb416]

Ok, I've skipped over all the agency bashing threads. Did anyone go or hear anything more about the press conference yesterday? Has anything future been discovered about why this woman died?

Unless I misunderstood Jodie, it's tomorrow (Friday) at 10am.

 

[scubagrrl06]

Unless I misunderstood Jodie, it's tomorrow (Friday) at 10am.

Ah sorry. I guess I misread! Thanks for the update.

 

[BubblesUp]

...Until more facts are known, the arguments don't belong in this thread, IMO.

I respectfully bow out of the conversation.

I applaud your decision, Trucker Girl, and sincerely hope that more will follow suit.