Fourth Diver this year dies at Gilboa

[wb416]

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Do "we" want to help those divers stay alive or just make sure they stay alive while they are at Gilboa.

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As a "friend of Gilboa" and Mike W, I don't think you want me to answer that. :14:

 

[RadRob]

First let me say I feel that discussion about the training and the agencies is appropriate as we are discussing what happened in this accident. That's what this is about, talking about accidents and why they happened. The quality and the level of training should be looked at.

Another point. Where is an instructor supposed to learn all these things that we can add? If an instructor comes up through the PADI system under instructors who are teaching to the letter of the standard (that can be done in 6 months and 100 dives) where would the instructor learn this stuff? The things that I added to the PADI courses that I taught are NOT things that I learned in PADI courses and they are NOT things that I invented on my own through experience.

Well, I don't change my position on the requirements already in place for OW certs. However, when talking about instruction, I lose sight of the fact that instructors are also going through the same fast track system and not getting the training before they go out and try to teach others. I do feel that the requirements to become an instructor are too lax. Having the ability to become an instructor so quickly is definitely a problem in my mind also. I take for granted the instructors I know and dive with are all experienced and do a good job. They didn't take short cuts and they do add things of their own to the courses to further add safety and enjoyment to the sport. With a more experienced instructor, the training of OW students would be better.

I have never said these agencies are perfect the way they are. I simply said accidents of divers shouldn't be blamed on them. If we start blaming them for accidents then they will start making rule after rule for me and my diving. I don't agree with anyone making decisions for me and regulating my life. and here's why...

I have been diving for 17 years. Not long for some, but that's almost half of my life. I have quite a bit of experience in varying conditions and environments. I was never interested in "collecting badges." I had the experience that far surpassed those with "advanced" OW certs yet I was starting to be limited by dive op's because I didn't have the card. My diving was being hindered because more rules and regulations were put in place and the dive op's, from fear of litigation, started enforcing them. I don't agree with rules that force you to spend more money to get a piece of plastic, that basically means NOTHING, to show experience that I already had before these stupid regulations were put in place.

I guess what my position really is, or is not, is not really pro-agency. My view is leave them alone and they, hopefully, will leave us alone. I may take courses to further my education on my own, but I shouldn't be forced to take a boat diving course or night diving course to be able to go below 60 feet. To instruct others when they are beginning, I feel the instructor should have more experience. For those with experience already and simply want to dive, maybe there should be a sort of grandfather clause. Regulate those who want to take the professional route and make money teaching, and leave those of us who just want to dive and enjoy it alone.

You obviously know jack squat about Padi teaching practices and what they expect, for any "pro" (And I say that tongue in cheek) Padi level course. Quit while you're only this far behind.

Please show me a case where someone was sued for teaching someone more than was required. I have had plenty of experience with PADI, NAUI, and others and know what they will sue for and what they won't (my POS business partner was sued by PADI and NAUI). As a previous shop owner, believe me, they had plenty to say. So, Mr. Guru on PADI, please enlighten me on when PADI sued someone or revoked their instructor card for going above and beyond. I'm not here to profess my knowledge on standards (yes I have read them and know what they say) and practices to you or anyone else. So please share your never-ending knowledge on the topic so I can have some understanding. Have you been sued or know someone who has been, cause I do. I would be more than happy to share specifics, but not here.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

the way some used to do it in the past... show me your logbook, and discuss with me why you think you're qualified to do this dive.

But can't that be faked as easily as getting a nearly worthless c-card from a too-easy instructor?

 

[Steve R]

Please show me a case where someone was sued for teaching someone more than was required......

Please show me where you understand anything of what Padi teaches in their pro training, IDC's and what is required of them in an IE.

It's pretty clear to me from your post, you know jack about the process. But of course, I've been there and did that many times with Padi personally. That's the sound of a trump card dude. Get used to it. You're out of your league here.

We're not talking about who is sueing whom, who teaches what and who doesn't, we're discussing in this instance what an agency (padi) requires from an Instructor to teach, and why they attempt real hard to ensure your class is the same as the next guys, which in a huge majority of the cases, is nothing more than what Padi wants them to teach, which is to say only what's in the book.

As you said, they can't even be judged in a pass/fail process since it's not required material. Pretty stupid huh? Seems a lot to me like Padi doesn't trust the brains of their instructors to me.

This might be too much of a stretch for you to understand, I am not sure.

Mind you, I've actually taught Padi instructors stuff like this in classes when they come to us for what we know as basic dive information, but they're coming for a recreational level class similar to a GUE-dir-f. We have to start there, at the very basics, because we know they don't know any of it for the most part.

Seems to me that those that step up to the plate and put their pride aside actually end up learning a lot.

As Mike has said, what's missing is basic scuba skills. It's just too easy to recognize, and no amount of harping at the big machine from any of us whilst being current instructors did any good.

It's simply not their mandate to produce divers of any real skill at all.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Polly ... Mike does require redundancy now, at least based upon the deep dive form and the conversation my instructor and I had with him.

I thought there was a copy of the "deep dive plan " on the website but I don't see it. I haven't seen one in a while and maybe it's changed but at one time it contained a list of requirements that you had to meet (redundant breathing equipment was one) OR you had to be with an instructor. At that time, an instructor was not required to have a redundant supply and niether were the divers diving with the instructor. Also as I recall, a "hang tank " counted. All this may have since changed so don't take my word for it.

How then would a dive charter let's say out to the SS Wisconsin know who to take?
Those dives are 130' to the bottom and the temps are typically low 40s at best. In your new order of things, how would they know who to allow to do those dives? Granted that today's world isn't perfect, but perfection also isn't possible nor probably desirable. But what is an honest to goodness alternative that would be LESS error prone than todays situation of having some deep certified diver with 13 logged dives doing those dives?

[/QUOTE]

Who to allow? If you go to a boat dealer to buy a boat who is there to make sure that you don't jump out of it in the wrong place? If you rent a boat who looks out after your diving? What about if you hire a boat and captain to drive it and park it where you say to park it? You don't need a diving cert to buy/rent a boat. You don't need a diving cert to buy a compressor. You don't need one to buy any gas you want from an industrial gas supplier.

I say, if someone can pay the fare and they want to dive, let them dive! I get a kick out of this, I really do. I catch all this flack for being hard on the agencies from all these people who want to defend them but nobody thinks that divers are trained well eneough to be able to make their own decisions. What kind of double-speak is that? I say, train them well and give them the ball!

You don't need a card. You want to dive deep? use exotic gasses? How about deep and in a cave at the same time? How about a 300 ft deep cave dive where you can drive right up to the cave entrance? I can show you how and where to get access to all those things without ever having to show a stupid card to anybody and do it without breaking any laws. (I could but I won't lol)

Why do most people buy a class? I'll tell you why...I owned a dive shop. They do it to purchase the access and they don't care anything about the training. Therefor I can sell any kind of garbage class I want and people will buy it because they need the card. All cards that say OW on them result in the same access privilages and they are all worth the same on the open market regardless of the quality of the training. Therefor, I can't get a dime more for a really quality class. If people didn't need the card, they wouldn't buy a class unless they saw real value in the training and there wouldn't be a market for most of this sorry slop that is passed off as training.

All these stupid cards do is put poorly trained divers in the water doing things they really aren't able to do and probably wouldn't even consider doing if they weren't lead to believe that they were really qualified.

So...if I'm running a charter and I have to decide who "should be" going on the Wisconsin, I aint looking at cards (this isn't exactly true and if you can figure out why I'll explain). If I'm going to dive with someone, I don't want to hear about what cards they have. They have proven to be completely unreliable. You really should take some time out, do a little research and thought into how this c-card thing really works (this is a hint).

I know I rambled some but I hope I answered your question in there someplace.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The c-card thing may be what keeps serious legal regulation away and that gives us all a ittle bit more personal freedom.

That's the dive industries claim anyway. I don't believe it. The agency control over the industry is NOT for our safety or to keep government off our backs . It is to create a captive market for their lousy products.

If I have a choice, I'd rather the government control it. At least with government I get to vote and they are gracious enough to let me think that my vote counts. Give PADI a call and see if they will let you vote on their next marketing initiative?

 

[MikeFerrara]

As a "friend of Gilboa" and Mike W, I don't think you want me to answer that. :14:

You don't need to answer that. I know the answer and I understand.

 

[Steve_Dives]

What in the world else can Mike do to make a safer facility? Oh, maybe not allow diving........

The only thing that came to mind was a rope bag, throwable floats, or other rescue float. These wouldn't have made any difference to the accidents this year. It's almost window dressing, but go check out a pool. What's on a for hire boat? While it might be a cost for Mike, it might encourage rescue courses to visit and offset the installation. And they'd be available for practice, so you could argue the quarry is safer (although, again, a throw ring would have made no difference in this year's fatalities).

 

[rjchandler]

First let me say I feel that discussion about the training and the agencies is appropriate as we are discussing what happened in this accident.

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The one thing that is NOT being discussed is what happened in this accident. But these threads seldom do that.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I guess what my position really is, or is not, is not really pro-agency. My view is leave them alone and they, hopefully, will leave us alone. I may take courses to further my education on my own, but I shouldn't be forced to take a boat diving course or night diving course to be able to go below 60 feet. To instruct others when they are beginning, I feel the instructor should have more experience. For those with experience already and simply want to dive, maybe there should be a sort of grandfather clause. Regulate those who want to take the professional route and make money teaching, and leave those of us who just want to dive and enjoy it alone.

ok, we're pretty much playing off the same sheet of music now. I don't want to be regulated. Train people well if you are going to sell training and then get out of their shorts. When you say "Regulate those who want to take the professional route" we're essentially talking about training standards.