Fourth Diver this year dies at Gilboa

[Meister481]

I'll give you a direct association. Two of the deaths at Giboa this year are thought to have been caused by free flowing regs. Many of the rapid ascents/injuries/ems responses there in the past have started with free flows also.

Now lets look at how that relates to agency standards. Some agencies don't teach free flow management at all. PADI is actully one of the ones that does require it. Hhowever, it isn't required that it ever be done in a diving context. I think that if you go watch a bunch of classes you'll see that students usually practice it while solidly planted to the bottom on their knees.

When it happens on a real dive we're usually midwater and controling your position while managing a free flowing reg is a completely different ball game. Very often the result is an uncontroled/rapid ascent. Some of those rapid ascents result in injury.

I'll give you another direct association. Several incidents at Gilboa over the years have involved AOW students diving with an instructor on a "deep dive". We've been all over the minimal requirements in the OW standards especially as they relate to actually having to dive midwater, buoyancy control, trim ect. Now lets look at the fact that the AOW deep dive may be the students 5th lifetime dive. The point is, we demonstrably have a student who has never been required to demonstrate that they can dive well shallow and they can be doing a 100 ft training dive in 40 deg water. Lets throw one more point in there and that is that you can become an instructor only having done one dive below 60 ft (the instructors own AOW deep dive). So HOT DOG, the instructor and his/her student can do their first 100 ft dive together. Now, should we be surprised that we DO see AOW students getting hurt?

Lets not stop there though. The AOW deep dive usually consists of kneeling on the bottom and doing a puzzle and then maybe a shallow tour. No real deep diving going on here but now the student has this AOW card. That AOW card and filling out a "deep dive plan" gets them a ticket to the deep side. They may actually even think they are qualified and prepared. According to the text they are right. That AOW deep dive (and it's prerequisites) has to be the biggest travesty in all the diving world.

Now we've sort of gone full circle and lets ask what the training background was of the two divers who got killed when they're regs free flowed. I don't really know the answer but I'd be willing to put up a modest amount of money that says my first guess wouldn't be very far off.

I am speaking solely about this incident, no others. I'll give it to you that the first 2 incidents were a result of poor judgement facilitated by inadequate equpiment.

I'm a product of PADI and have gone past that scene now, I see where things can go wrong when people dive beyond their training. It's horrible to watch people in singles go over to the deep side in Gilboa.

 

[MikeFerrara]

So... aside from all the forms and current equipment requirements/recommendations that are currently in place, what are the "real world" options for Mike at Gilboa to consider?

Should he only allow those with Recreational Helium certs (e.g. IANTD, GUE, NAUI) and above (e.g. Tech certs) to dive on the deep side?

Should someone have to have a certain quantity of dives at Gilboa to be eligible for the deep side?

Should a person need to be "guided" on their first Gilboa Deep dive(s) with someone that Mike W. trusts?

How does he make "the rubber meet the road" here without closing the place down?

Obviously no one can answer those questions for Mike. In that position, I'd keep a hands off policy. Once you start making decisions for people then you are responsible for your decisions being the right ones...morally if not legally. I'd rather approach it from a diver/consumer education angle and he does have all those free flow warnings posted. Unfortunately, I'm not sure all that many divers understand the significance. His policies are in line with industry accepted practices. While that may not do all that much for actual diver safety, it is a legally defensible position.

Personally, I couldn't hang out at Gilboa day after day and watch this stuff. Notice you don't see me there too often these days.

For benchmarking purposes we could look at some other "advanced sites" and see what approach they take. Would we consider Gilboa an advanced site? Just barely, IMO. Anyway, maybe places like 40 Fathom Grotto. As a diver I don't care for hat much regulation but Hal Watts knows what would happen if he just opened the place up.

Places like Blue Grotto make divers watch a video. How about a video of wb416 and buddies demonstrating various skills with a warning that if you can't dive like that, you might want to stay shallow and warm no matter what your agency or instructor says. Maybe something that does what "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" does for overhead environments. Scare them a little. They probably should be scared.

Just brain storming here. The only real answer I think is for instructors, agencies and divers to somehow get a real wakeup call but I'm not holding my breath. I don't know if Mike has done it but if I were him I'd be on the phone to the agencies asking them what they think about some of the stuff that has happened over there in relation to their standards and practices.

 

[jtivat]

I'll give you a direct association. Two of the deaths at Giboa this year are thought to have been caused by free flowing regs. Many of the rapid ascents/injuries/ems responses there in the past have started with free flows also.

Now lets look at how that relates to agency standards. Some agencies don't teach free flow management at all. PADI is actully one of the ones that does require it. Hhowever, it isn't required that it ever be done in a diving context. I think that if you go watch a bunch of classes you'll see that students usually practice it while solidly planted to the bottom on their knees.

When it happens on a real dive we're usually midwater and controling your position while managing a free flowing reg is a completely different ball game. Very often the result is an uncontroled/rapid ascent. Some of those rapid ascents result in injury.

Sorry but I call BS! I have seen four real free flow situations while wreck diving in the straits. None of them even tried to breath off the free flowing reg. Two shot the others just freaked out until someone but a Reg in their face. Now you are going to tell me that if they learned to breath the Reg while in mid water all would have been fine? BS When asked they all said the did not even know what was happening and this is after a briefing reminding them this is cold water and Regs will free flow and you can breath off it.

I do agree with a lot of what you say but sometimes it just goes a little to far. I totally agree the AOW cert is a joke and does not get anyone ready to dive the deep side of Gilboa. I also believe instructors should not be taking students to the deep side unless they know they are ready. I have seen the instructor I learned from refuse to take many people to the deep side, some with many dives under there belt b/c he felt they where not ready.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

So... aside from all the forms and current equipment requirements/recommendations that are currently in place, what are the "real world" options for Mike at Gilboa to consider?

Should he only allow those with Recreational Helium certs (e.g. IANTD, GUE, NAUI) and above (e.g. Tech certs) to dive on the deep side?

Should someone have to have a certain quantity of dives at Gilboa to be eligible for the deep side?

Should a person need to be "guided" on their first Gilboa Deep dive(s) with someone that Mike W. trusts?

How does he make "the rubber meet the road" here without closing the place down?

All good questions Bob. I wouldn't want to see Mike do any more than he already does.

Why do we keep focusing on the deep side? This latest incident wasn't on the deep side and didn't require a deep plan. Two of the four deaths this year were on the deep side, but yet we keep focusing alot of attention on that side.

The way I look at it, there has been one accident this year on the deep side that unfortunately resulted in two deaths. Very tragic, but it's one accident. I have a couple of buddies who were involved in a free-flow incident a couple of weeks ago on a 100+' dive at Gilboa. The one buddy switched to his pony as he'd practiced and prepared for and successfully terminated the dive with a controled ascent. In my mind it's about planning, preparation and experience and not whether you have this card or that card.

This latest incident is sounding like a case of poor judgment and poor buddy skills, but what exactly led to the tragic death is still uncertain because there was no buddy there to witness it or to offer assistance. That leads me to look more at poor training or poor dive execution than problems handling depth at Gilboa.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Sorry but I call BS! I have seen four real free flow situations while wreck diving in the straits. None of them even tried to breath off the free flowing reg. Two shot the others just freaked out until someone but a Reg in their face. Now you are going to tell me that if they learned to breath the Reg while in mid water all would have been fine? BS When asked they all said the did not even know what was happening and this is after a briefing reminding them this is cold water and Regs will free flow and you can breath off it.

What practice midwater does is give the ability to control your position enough to make a controled ascent or stay put while you switch to another breathing source. I'd be happy to provide a demonstration.

I did teach this skill midwater and I can tell you that almost every students ends up on the surface their first couple of tries. After that it isn't a big deal but you don't want to try it for the first time on a real dive. You need to have a bunch of tanks on hand to teach it too because it does use up the air.

Did any of those divers in the straits have such practice behind them? I'd guess not. It isn't at all uncommon for divers with the training and experience to successfully manage a free flow. I've seen several and there isn't any reason that it has to be a big deal unless it's your first time trying it.

 

[OWSI176288]

Sorry but I call BS! I have seen four real free flow situations while wreck diving in the straits. None of them even tried to breath off the free flowing reg. Two shot the others just freaked out until someone but a Reg in their face. Now you are going to tell me that if they learned to breath the Reg while in mid water all would have been fine? BS When asked they all said the did not even know what was happening and this is after a briefing reminding them this is cold water and Regs will free flow and you can breath off it.

Am I missing something or what? Doesn't this just further back up Mike's assertion that most divers haven't been trained to deal with an actual midwater free-flow. And YES...if they would of been trained and told to practice it once in awhile...what they perceived as a major problem would of been a minor inconvenience...breath off the reg and make a slow controled assent to the surface (with your dive buddy next to you).

 

[wb416]

Sorry but I call BS! I have seen four real free flow situations while wreck diving in the straits. None of them even tried to breath off the free flowing reg. Two shot the others just freaked out until someone but a Reg in their face. Now you are going to tell me that if they learned to breath the Reg while in mid water all would have been fine? BS When asked they all said the did not even know what was happening and this is after a briefing reminding them this is cold water and Regs will free flow and you can breath off it.

My turn to call BS.... no one instinctively handles a free-flow situation if ALL they did was talk about it in a briefing!! There's no time for rational thought, just instinctive response!! You have to practice "problem management", and the point that Mike was making is that the practice does no good on your knees when the "event" is going to occur mid-water.

I've been part of a group that had unplanned free-flow event at the deep end of Gilboa. The buddy team did a slow deliberate ascent to the surface while working with the offending regs.

 

[jtivat]

These people did not even no they had a free flow how is mid water training going to help? They first needed to be comfortable in deep dark cold water that was there problem. They were so over come with being cold and in dark water they did not have a clue. You are not going to get anyone ready for this in an OW class unless it takes twenty OW dives in various conditions and two months to complete. The real problem is charters let people with OW cards and six dives go on dives like this but I know it is all the agency. I saw a woman with sixteen dives allowed to dive the Eber Ward in 135’ of water with a good current if she died who’s fault is that?

 

[MikeFerrara]

My turn to call BS.... no one instinctively handles a free-flow situation if ALL they did was talk about it in a briefing!! There's no time for rational thought, just instinctive response!! You have to practice "problem management", and the point that Mike was making is that the practice does no good on your knees when the "event" is going to occur mid-water.

I've been part of a group that had unplanned free-flow event at the deep end of Gilboa. The buddy team did a slow deliberate ascent to the surface while working with the offending regs.

Yes, that was the point I've been trying to make.

 

[jtivat]

Also I am not saying the mid water free flow idea is bad I have students do there mask removal and clear mid water. It is just not a fix all and there is a lot broken besides the agencies. Not sure what the experience level or certs of the divers with the free flow problem at Gilboa were but AOW is not enough and they should be required to have a redundant air source (which I thought Mike did require) and know how to use it.

You are all right a free flow is not at all a big deal and can be handled very easily.