Four dead in Italian cave

[Lemna]

Update: Tragedia Palinuro, sparito profondimetro di un sub: «Speriamo sia sciacallaggio» - Il Mattino

As far as I understood:

* the dive computer of Panaiotis Telios, one of the victims, has disappeared, presumably stolen after his body was taken to the morgue
* experts have been appointed by the lawyers of the victims and the dive shop owner; they will conduct a technical investigation and their conclusions within a month before the court
* the dive shop owner is now officially considered a suspect, together with the divemaster who died in the incident
* one of the survivors testified: she told the court that the divemaster led the way, followed by the divers (in buddy pairs)
* 3 of the participants received their open water certificates on 6 June; they had 10 dives total and were accompanied by their instructors on a holiday trip to Palinuro
* the victim's lawyers argued that Panaotis was asthmatic and his medical condition did not get checked out thoroughly by the dive school, and in addition they claim that he was inexperienced and a new diver; thus he should never have been eligible to participate in a cave dive. They asked to broaden the scope of the inquiry to include the responsibility of the diving school.

 

[Crush]

* the victim's lawyers argued that Panaotis was asthmatic and his medical condition did not get checked out thoroughly by the dive school, and in addition they claim that he was inexperienced and a new diver; thus he should never have been eligible to participate in a cave dive. They asked to broaden the scope of the inquiry to include the responsibility of the diving school.

Anyone who is not properly trained, current in that training, and properly equipped is never eligible to participate in a cave dive.

All scuba divers should have been taught this.

All cavern/cave divers are taught this.

All cavern/cave instructors teach this.

Bring in a cave diving expert to testify before the courts.

 

[Lemna]

Bring in a cave diving expert to testify before the courts.

Two of the appointed experts are diving experts, and one is an engineer. The article does not mention any cave diving credentials.

 

[windapp]

There is fault on both sides.

Firmly disagree. I don't recall anywhere in my training being told that I should be wary of dive professionals guiding me into unsafe situations. The fault for the death of these divers lies clearly on the dive operation. The owner should be thrown in jail for manslaughter for allowing someone who is untrained in cave diving to lead divers who are untrained in cave diving into a cave. The divers trusted the dive operator with their lives, and they were betrayed. Yes, they should have refused to follow, but that doesn't diminish the absolute responsibility of the dive operator.

Maybe if the dive operator served some jail time, then other dive operators wouldn't do stupid things like this in the future.

 

[nimoh]

Firmly disagree. I don't recall anywhere in my training being told that I should be wary of dive professionals guiding me into unsafe situations. The fault for the death of these divers lies clearly on the dive operation. The owner should be thrown in jail for manslaughter for allowing someone who is untrained in cave diving to lead divers who are untrained in cave diving into a cave. The divers trusted the dive operator with their lives, and they were betrayed. Yes, they should have refused to follow, but that doesn't diminish the absolute responsibility of the dive operator.

Maybe if the dive operator served some jail time, then other dive operators wouldn't do stupid things like this in the future.

my training included telling me not to dive beyond my ability and training. Furthermore, I was specifically told not to dive in overhead environments without proper training including an explanation as to what the proper training encompasses.

Probably not a perfect analogy, but in my driver training, I was told not to drink and drive, but I was never told to be wary of any professional drivers that say it is OK to have a couple of drinks.

 

[windapp]

my training included telling me not to dive beyond my ability and training. Furthermore, I was specifically told not to dive in overhead environments without proper training including an explanation as to what the proper training encompasses.

The PADI manual does not mention any of the special procedures required to safely dive caves. As far as a new diver is concerned, being lead into the cave by a professional could very well encompass the first step in proper training.

Probably not a perfect analogy, but in my driver training, I was told not to drink and drive, but I was never told to be wary of any professional drivers that say it is OK to have a couple of drinks.

Being told to trust somebody to keep you safe is not at all analagous to being given bad advise over a couple of beers. By the way, if the professional drivers can be perceived as authority, they could be sued for this statement.

 

[eelnoraa]

Firmly disagree. I don't recall anywhere in my training being told that I should be wary of dive professionals guiding me into unsafe situations. The fault for the death of these divers lies clearly on the dive operation. The owner should be thrown in jail for manslaughter for allowing someone who is untrained in cave diving to lead divers who are untrained in cave diving into a cave. The divers trusted the dive operator with their lives, and they were betrayed. Yes, they should have refused to follow, but that doesn't diminish the absolute responsibility of the dive operator.

Maybe if the dive operator served some jail time, then other dive operators wouldn't do stupid things like this in the future.

Divers themselves have the ultimate responsibility for their own safety. I have to emphasized that the dive op is at certainly at fault in this case, but minutes you decide to follow the guide into a cave, you decided to put your life in their hand. It is a mutual decision. The op didn't force you.

Don't blame other for a poor decision of your own. But since we are in North America, I guess we don't know that concept.

 

[nimoh]

The PADI manual does not mention any of the special procedures required to safely dive caves. As far as a new diver is concerned, being lead into the cave by a professional could very well encompass the first step in proper training.



Being told to trust somebody to keep you safe is not at all analagous to being given bad advise over a couple of beers. By the way, if the professional drivers can be perceived as authority, they could be sued for this statement.

yes, you have successfully shot down my analogy

However, I agree that the PADI manual does not discuss cave procedures, by design since it is not a cave course. OW divers are told not to dive in caves without proper certification, and I think this sufficiently puts part of the responsibility on the diver. The dive op shouldn't be offering to take these OW divers in either, putting part of the blame on them as well.

 

[boulderjohn]

The reality that a lot of things that divers are taught in OW class are very soon overridden by what they experience. It's a pretty rare OW diver who doesn't go beyond 60 feet on their first trip to Cozumel, and they will likely be experiencing the overhead environments of swim throughs when they do. The next time I see a OW recreational diver pull out a dive table outside of a class will be my first. I have had students tell me flat out that diving friends told them before class that they didn't have to pay attention to a number of things taught in the class because "in the real world," that is not how people dive.

Sure, those divers are ignoring their training, but they have plenty of reason to believe that those elements in their training are overly conservative restrictions they are free to ignore. I think the vast majority of divers will follow a professional guide on the theory that if everyone else is doing it and the guide says it is OK, then it must be OK for me, too. I think it is a rare individual who would refuse. I have seen hundreds of OW divers in Cozumel go deeper than 60 feet and into overhead environments. I have never seen anyone refuse the depth, and I have only seen a couple skirt the swim throughs.

 

[nimoh]

The reality that a lot of things that divers are taught in OW class are very soon overridden by what they experience. It's a pretty rare OW diver who doesn't go beyond 60 feet on their first trip to Cozumel, and they will likely be experiencing the overhead environments of swim throughs when they do. The next time I see a OW recreational diver pull out a dive table outside of a class will be my first. I have had students tell me flat out that diving friends told them before class that they didn't have to pay attention to a number of things taught in the class because "in the real world," that is not how people dive.

Sure, those divers are ignoring their training, but they have plenty of reason to believe that those elements in their training are overly conservative restrictions they are free to ignore. I think the vast majority of divers will follow a professional guide on the theory that if everyone else is doing it and the guide says it is OK, then it must be OK for me, too. I think it is a rare individual who would refuse. I have seen hundreds of OW divers in Cozumel go deeper than 60 feet and into overhead environments. I have never seen anyone refuse the depth, and I have only seen a couple skirt the swim throughs.

I agree with that, I followed a DM into a Cenote last year and my highest level of certification was a Rescue Diver. However, if anything happened to me, I think it would have been at least partly (if not all) my fault. I was aware of the risks, and was pretty sure I could do it.

In my case though the operator went a little further in that I had to do a check out dive out on the reef, where he ensured I had the buoyancy skills necessary to stay off the bottom, and a non-silting kick style.