Four dead in Italian cave

[Lemna]

They could have known and should have known... That is what you are given common sense for ... To use it.

That's easy to say, but at 10 dives, how are you going to distinguish good advice from bad?

This trip was organized by their dive school, and these beginners were accompanied by its owner, an instructor who is technical director of the school, instructor trainer for CMAS, and instructor for DAN and Pure Tech Agency. Moreover, the school teaches several tech and cave diving courses, up to full cave. Many people would trust somebody with credentials like these, as boulderjohn pointed out earlier.

 

[cascas]

That's easy to say, but at 10 dives, how are you going to distinguish good advice from bad?

Because of what the book says, and by using common sense... I know it doesn't help the victims, but it might help future new divers...

NEVER TURN OFF COMMON SENSE !!! You don't do that in normal life (if you do, you're just proving the validity of Murphy's law), why should you when diving ?


If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't ( even if an "experienced" diver says it is...)

 

[Lemna]

Because of what the book says, and by using common sense... I know it doesn't help the victims, but it might help future new divers...

NEVER TURN OFF COMMON SENSE !!! You don't do that in normal life (if you do, you're just proving the validity of Murphy's law), why should you when diving ?


If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't ( even if an "experienced" diver says it is...)

Diving manuals are written by experienced instructors, but what makes them more valid than the guidance of other experienced instructors, from a new divers' perspective? The PADI manual is not some infallible holy book... I've often seen instructors deviate from it to accommodate local circumstances. Just a small example: according to your profile you are a PADI MSDT, but your profile picture shows a rather different hose configuration than the PADI OW manual. How would a student of yours know which configuration is safe and/or best for her? Would you want her to trust you on this, or the manual?

At this point, I can't possibly imagine myself following anybody into a cave. But I can easily imagine that many people with 10 dives would follow a very experienced tech instructor who tells them he knows what he is doing. Don't put too much blame on the inexperienced victims.

 

[windapp]

Because of what the book says, and by using common sense... I know it doesn't help the victims, but it might help future new divers...

NEVER TURN OFF COMMON SENSE !!! You don't do that in normal life (if you do, you're just proving the validity of Murphy's law), why should you when diving ?


If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't ( even if an "experienced" diver says it is...)

And that is what we have learned at the cost of these innocent lives. Who's to say it didn't feel right. The rules that require to be followed going into a cave or cavern are not common sense. As the video says, they were learned one by one, each at the cost of one of an early pioneer's life. The dive agencies need to do more to emphasize what is required to enter a cavern. Legal agencies need to punish dive operators who suggest you can do it any differently.

 

[nimoh]

I think if this was presented to the students by a dive school as a cave course, that is a different story. My understanding is that this was a tour dive, and I think the students likely new this.

I don't know who is at fault, nor am I qualified to render a decision, and even if I did, I don't think I have nearly enough information to do so. However, I am not willing to accept that an OW diver is completely unaware of the inherent risks of cave diving, nor am I willing to accept that an OW diver is completely unaware of what constitutes cave training.

At some point people need to take responsibility for their own lives.

 

[boulderjohn]

People are tossing the words "cavern" and "cave" around as if they are interchangeable. They are not.

The fact is that whatever the manual may say, OW divers take guided tours of caverns every day around the world. It would not surprise me to learn that 1,000 OW divers participate in a supervised cavern tour every day around the world. It is done routinely in many places, and OW divers often seek out those places for their reputations. In many places these caverns are routinely dived--with permission--by OW divers without guides.

It is my understanding that this was supposed to be just such a cavern dive. (People who know the site please correct me if I am wrong.)

Once they were inside the cavern, the DM apparently mistakenly took a wrong turn because of his unfamiliarity with the site and because a usual warning sign was not there for some reason. In doing so, he took these divers into a cave. Not only was it not a cavern, it was particularly dangerous because of the presence of a great amount of silt. Divers who are diving under the belief that they are part of a routine cavern tour will have no way of knowing that the professional guide they are following has led them out of the cavern zone and into a particularly dangerous cave. Without the warning sign, how were they to know?

 

[nimoh]

People are tossing the words "cavern" and "cave" around as if they are interchangeable. They are not.

The fact is that whatever the manual may say, OW divers take guided tours of caverns every day around the world. It would not surprise me to learn that 1,000 OW divers participate in a supervised cavern tour every day around the world. It is done routinely in many places, and OW divers often seek out those places for their reputations. In many places these caverns are routinely dived--with permission--by OW divers without guides.

It is my understanding that this was supposed to be just such a cavern dive. (People who know the site please correct me if I am wrong.)

Once they were inside the cavern, the DM apparently mistakenly took a wrong turn because of his unfamiliarity with the site and because a usual warning sign was not there for some reason. In doing so, he took these divers into a cave. Not only was it not a cavern, it was particularly dangerous because of the presence of a great amount of silt. Divers who are diving under the belief that they are part of a routine cavern tour will have no way of knowing that the professional guide they are following has led them out of the cavern zone and into a particularly dangerous cave. Without the warning sign, how were they to know?

that makes sense, and as I said earlier, I am a little fuzzy on the difference between cave and cavern. I imagine even without the wrong turn, silting out a cavern can turn it into a cave dive (further adding to the confusion).

My only point of disagreement really, is that I think the divers should have been aware of the risks they were taking and should share at least some responsibility. I don't like using ignorance as defense.

However, I'm sure good lawyers could make "fault" go either way.

 

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

Once they were inside the cavern, the DM apparently mistakenly took a wrong turn because of his unfamiliarity with the site and because a usual warning sign was not there for some reason.

That actually raises an interesting question. Cavern definition includes that you can see daylight. Therefore, you should have been able to see the exit and known that this was the wrong route. Was this a guided cavern dive that inadvertanly became a "guided" (in the loosest sense of the word) cave dive? DM ought to have been able to see the exit and therefore was doing an optional add on without realising the consequences?

None the less, even the standards for cavern diving were clearly violated.

 

[Zippsy]

Without the warning sign, how were they to know?

Without what warning sign? The big one in the OW manual that says in really big letters "DO NOT GO INTO A CAVERN...".

If their OW instructor did not also mention that, he shares some blame. If the divers did not see it, did not remember it, or chose to ignore it based on ANYTHING that the guide / shop / instructor of the cavern dive told them, then they also share the blame. Clearly, the guide / shop / instructor also share some blame.

When someone is taught not to do something by an organization and a teacher and they are told why they should not do it, then another teacher comes along and says, ignore what you were told, why does the student get a free pass for choosing one over the other without any personal thinking?

The manual says "don't do it; you can easily die". The OW instructor says "don't do it; you can easily die". The shop says what "Ah forget what you learned; we do this all the time". The diver says "that's good enough for me; where do I gear up"???

 

[cascas]

Diving manuals are written by experienced instructors, but what makes them more valid than the guidance of other experienced instructors, from a new divers' perspective? The PADI manual is not some infallible holy book... I've often seen instructors deviate from it to accommodate local circumstances. Just a small example: according to your profile you are a PADI MSDT, but your profile picture shows a rather different hose configuration than the PADI OW manual. How would a student of yours know which configuration is safe and/or best for her? Would you want her to trust you on this, or the manual?

At this point, I can't possibly imagine myself following anybody into a cave. But I can easily imagine that many people with 10 dives would follow a very experienced tech instructor who tells them he knows what he is doing. Don't put too much blame on the inexperienced victims.

I'll go even further than that... I teach OW using a wing, BP and HOG loop... I also tell my student ( yes, singular) why i do that and why I think it is a good idea. I also do tell them that using other gear will not kill them, but I just do not own it, so they will have to do with what I got.... basically the same as any other school/instructor, except they don't tell about wing/BP/hog...

And that is what we have learned at the cost of these innocent lives. Who's to say it didn't feel right. The rules that require to be followed going into a cave or cavern are not common sense. As the video says, they were learned one by one, each at the cost of one of an early pioneer's life. The dive agencies need to do more to emphasize what is required to enter a cavern. Legal agencies need to punish dive operators who suggest you can do it any differently.

enough people have died in caverns and caves. that is why the OW (PADI) book tells students not to do what they are not trained for.
As a cavediver myself I further stress that point by telling my students that if and when they go into a cave they 'd better do it while in an cave class, not sooner...

I think if this was presented to the students by a dive school as a cave course, that is a different story. My understanding is that this was a tour dive, and I think the students likely new this.

I don't know who is at fault, nor am I qualified to render a decision, and even if I did, I don't think I have nearly enough information to do so. However, I am not willing to accept that an OW diver is completely unaware of the inherent risks of cave diving, nor am I willing to accept that an OW diver is completely unaware of what constitutes cave training.

At some point people need to take responsibility for their own lives.

The school shoulndt have offered fresh OW divers the tour, the fresh OW divers shouldn't have booked it... period...

People are tossing the words "cavern" and "cave" around as if they are interchangeable. They are not.

The fact is that whatever the manual may say, OW divers take guided tours of caverns every day around the world. It would not surprise me to learn that 1,000 OW divers participate in a supervised cavern tour every day around the world. It is done routinely in many places, and OW divers often seek out those places for their reputations. In many places these caverns are routinely dived--with permission--by OW divers without guides.

It is my understanding that this was supposed to be just such a cavern dive. (People who know the site please correct me if I am wrong.)

I agree
If there is any, even the littlest chance that silt can block light entering a cavern, it should be considered a cave. If you can get far enough into a cavern and not see the entrance, it's a cave...
Only if it;s a very rocky and silt free cavern from which you can see the entrance and daylight from anywhere in the cavern, only then it is a cavern. Providing sunset is hours away...