Four dead in Italian cave

[boulderjohn]

I agree with that, I followed a DM into a Cenote last year and my highest level of certification was a Rescue Diver. However, if anything happened to me, I think it would have been at least partly (if not all) my fault. I was aware of the risks, and was pretty sure I could do it.

In my case though the operator went a little further in that I had to do a check out dive out on the reef, where he ensured I had the buoyancy skills necessary to stay off the bottom, and a non-silting kick style.

Guided tours into the cavern zone of a cenote are extremely common, and they have a great safety record. I did it myself about 11 years ago. This dive looks like it was supposed to be the equivalent.

Not long ago on a cenote dive in Mexico, the guide led divers past the cavern zone and into the cave zone, with resulting death.

That is what happened here. Divers expected a professionally led dive into a frequently dived cavern. Instead the rookie guide led them into a dangerous tunnel that was definitely not in the cavern zone. I suspect he did so because he did not know the area well and did not know what he was doing. The divers did not know that he had next to no knowledge of the system--they just knew they were following a professional.

 

[nimoh]

Guided tours into the cavern zone of a cenote are extremely common, and they have a great safety record. I did it myself about 11 years ago. This dive looks like it was supposed to be the equivalent.

Not long ago on a cenote dive in Mexico, the guide led divers past the cavern zone and into the cave zone, with resulting death.

That is what happened here. Divers expected a professionally led dive into a frequently dived cavern. Instead the rookie guide led them into a dangerous tunnel that was definitely not in the cavern zone. I suspect he did so because he did not know the area well and did not know what he was doing. The divers did not know that he had next to no knowledge of the system--they just knew they were following a professional.

I have to admit, I am pretty fuzzy on the difference between the cavern zone and the cave zone. My understanding is that the cavern zone has natural light, and silting could turn it into a cave zone in a hurry. If this definition is correct, my dive at Dos Ojos was in the cave zone (not due to silting, but there were points in the dive where I did not see the entrance or exit)

 

[cascas]

I have to admit, I am pretty fuzzy on the difference between the cavern zone and the cave zone. My understanding is that the cavern zone has natural light, and silting could turn it into a cave zone in a hurry. If this definition is correct, my dive at Dos Ojos was in the cave zone (not due to silting, but there were points in the dive where I did not see the entrance or exit)

The Dos Ojos cavern zone has several places where you're actually in what looks like cave, but has a ceiling higher than the water level so it is possible to surface. Not everywhere, I admit but that might be a reason why cavern tours are done in that particular area... You will not always be able to see if there is air above the water level or not...

 

[boulderjohn]

Different agencies have slightly different definitions, but generally there is a limit of depth and distance to open water. The key idea, though, is that if all lights are out, you should be able to see the light of open water. That means that a cavern by day is a cave at night. If I recall the Dos Ojos instance correctly (it's been a decade), there two openings (that's actually what the name suggests), and you switch at one point from one opening being the closest to the other. I had the distinct impression I was in a cave there myself, so it is possible the rule was bent.

But how are you, the novice diver following a professional guide, to know the difference?

 

[Fish-R-Man]

When the subject of training, trust in your guide and an overhead enviroment all come together and the dive is done correctly, all is good.

Most of the divers reading or posting on this thread have probably been to Coz. There they have a swim through called Devil's Throat. Not complicated, but rather deep and fairly long for for the average in that area. I am sure a great many O/W divers have been through it. You trust that your guides briefing of the dive is correct as far as depth, length, available light, etc. Now what if you have a guide that is not familier with the dive, knows the guidelines, but may not have much experience in the actual dive and misses the opening, but selects an opening just down the wall from there. It may look familier, may still have some light showing towards the end, but now you have a group following the guide into a blind cavern with the light showing through an opening that is too small to pass through. No problem, just turn around and go back. Unless you have one diver panic, silt up the passage which causes the panic in some of the others and now you have a bad situation.

The possibility of that scenario happening as I descibed it is most likely not probable in that location. I definetly could see that same scenario happening in other locations that I have been to.

 

[nimoh]

Different agencies have slightly different definitions, but generally there is a limit of depth and distance to open water. The key idea, though, is that if all lights are out, you should be able to see the light of open water. That means that a cavern by day is a cave at night. If I recall the Dos Ojos instance correctly (it's been a decade), there two openings (that's actually what the name suggests), and you switch at one point from one opening being the closest to the other. I had the distinct impression I was in a cave there myself, so it is possible the rule was bent.

But how are you, the novice diver following a professional guide, to know the difference?

I think it is very difficult to know the difference, but I was well aware that the dive was beyond my experience and training. After asking the operator a lot of questions, I was sure that it wasn't beyond my ability, and so assumed the risk. I was also sure that I could get out of the cave/cavern on my own if I needed to, and if I couldn't well, that would suck but I knew the risk, and for that I think some (or all depending on the nature of the emergency) of the responsibility was on me.

 

[Zippsy]

Firmly disagree. I don't recall anywhere in my training being told that I should be wary of dive professionals guiding me into unsafe situations. The fault for the death of these divers lies clearly on the dive operation. The owner should be thrown in jail for manslaughter for allowing someone who is untrained in cave diving to lead divers who are untrained in cave diving into a cave. The divers trusted the dive operator with their lives, and they were betrayed. Yes, they should have refused to follow, but that doesn't diminish the absolute responsibility of the dive operator.

Maybe if the dive operator served some jail time, then other dive operators wouldn't do stupid things like this in the future.

Firmly disagree. If some parachute instructor told me to jump out of a plane with my chute not strapped on properly, I hope I would remember my training and only jump properly. If I did not, no one could say that I was not half to blame. Where in the OW manual does it say to blindly trust some dive guide?

 

[windapp]

Firmly disagree. If some parachute instructor told me to jump out of a plane with my chute not strapped on properly, I hope I would remember my training and only jump properly. If I did not, no one could say that I was not half to blame. Where in the OW manual does it say to blindly trust some dive guide?

You are forgetting that these divers had no cave training to speak of . They didn't know that they were even supposed to be wearing a parachute (to be metaphorical). A dive operator told them that he could lead them safely into a cave. They trusted him that this was OK, and that he would lead them safely out again. Nothing in the official PADI OW training tells us what is involved with diving in an overhead environment. It only says that we need to be trained. From that information, how are we supposed to know what constitutes a safe cavern dive? If they took cavern training, they would be trusting whoever trained them to properly instruct them in how to cavern dive, and make sure they were getting it right before they went into a cavern. I really don't see the difference.

And, as for your parachute analogy, if the parachute instructor was the one who taught you how to strap on the chute, how are you supposed to know that it isn't strapped on properly?

 

[Zippsy]

I haven't read this whole thread, so pardon me if I am repeating this but here are direct quotes from the PADI Open Water manual (from the one page that is devoted to telling students that they should not be in any overhead environment:

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"Until you have the training and equipment you need, do not enter a cavern, cave, wreck or any other overhead environment. Doing so places you in an unnecessary and extremely hazardous situation."

"Those [divers] without this [specialized] training (including otherwise highly trained dive professionals) have a very poor safety record in these environments".

"One of the leading causes of diver fatalities is going into overhead environments without the proper training & equipment."

I could not find anything in the manual that said anything about "ignore what you have learned if an experienced person or dive professional tells you otherwise".
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Again, this doesn't absolve the shop or guide but the divers themselves are also at fault.

 

[cascas]

You are forgetting that these divers had no cave training to speak of . They didn't know that they were even supposed to be wearing a parachute (to be metaphorical). A dive operator told them that he could lead them safely into a cave. They trusted him that this was OK, and that he would lead them safely out again. Nothing in the official PADI OW training tells us what is involved with diving in an overhead environment. It only says that we need to be trained. From that information, how are we supposed to know what constitutes a safe cavern dive? If they took cavern training, they would be trusting whoever trained them to properly instruct them in how to cavern dive, and make sure they were getting it right before they went into a cavern. I really don't see the difference.

And, as for your parachute analogy, if the parachute instructor was the one who taught you how to strap on the chute, how are you supposed to know that it isn't strapped on properly?

Nowhere in the manual you will find a statement to turn off your common sense... Somehow people still do.
Passing for your drivers test doesn't qualify you for driving formula 1 cars, and that does make sense while cavediving with only OW training does not ? I just don't get it.
The phrase additional training for anything that is not covered in OW IS mentioned often enough, every chapter at least tries selling more courses, that should ring a bell. Also it is stressed that you are trained to dive similar or better conditions than during the course.

They could have known and should have known... That is what you are given common sense for ... To use it.