Four dead in Italian cave

[tstormdiver]

Although there are some who will disagree with me,.... In a nutshell, no one should be taking inexperienced divers into a cave(rn) environment, except for cave instructors; & then in the correct ratios (usually no more than 2-3). They have been trained on how to handle most any situation that can arise, any issues that someone new to the environment can have & they know the specific risks of taking someone inexperienced into these places. They also know how to convey the specific safety concerns to those under their charge. Even then,.... it is no guarantee.........

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I think it is too easy to blame the Agencies, blame the Dive leaders and say they should all change. I think we should all be committed to demonstrating to the less experienced divers the right behaviors. When they see experienced divers question Dive Guides about Dive briefs, refuse a given dive or tell about times they have sat out a dive and why we contribute to a safer dive environment.

IMHO there are a lot of experienced divers who are better than many DM's, Guides and even instructors. I think we all need to be willing to take on some responsibility to our fellow divers. I don't mean to play know it all and tell other divers what to do.. but to set an example that encourages good diving practices

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I agree with Tammy. No non cave instructor should be taking divers into caves or caverns. My formal overhead training and experience is in wrecks and under the ice. I would have no good reason to take a diver into a cavern for any reason. While some skill sets are similar the environments are different enough and the actual knowledge of those areas have such marked differences that taking divers into either does not often translate exactly. And I think it's been proven enough times by the number of dead "experienced professionals" without such training. Too bad the word is not better passed on. But then again greed dictates that you only tell divers so much. Giving them the full low down on the risks this entire activity has is frowned upon and in some cases seems to be actually discouraged in favor of bigger numbers in the cash register and certification records.
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[boulderjohn]

It seems to me that there are a significant number of fatalities in various cave systems throughout the world that have a high number of advanced trained divers (DM's, Instructors, ETC) as leaders or part of the group when a fatality happens.

I'm not sure that's true. I can't think of many cases at all. Perhaps you could share some links to a few.

 

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

I am in the process of getting my full cave cert. The whole experience is a "trust me" situation. I have to have full confidence in my instructor that he will not put me into a situation that I could not handle.

To be off topic, if you are doing full cave, you should know when you are approaching a situation you can't handle before you get there. I did full cave with one other student. We each thumbed one dive when the cave / situation wasn't to our liking. We also killed one dive plan in the car park cause we didn't like what the instructor suggested. (turns out the instructor threw some bad ideas at us to see how we responded).

Sure we could have pushed on and the two instructors would have probably kept us safe. However, if you are beyond your comfort level get out. Don't rely on others. Your ability to identify when risks are approaching unacceptable and to end the dive is a key part of advanced training.

 

[cascas]

A professional organisation would:
- issue a statement that they take this very serious and will investigate
- investigate
- issue a press-release with the findings of the investigation
- act up on the findings of the investigation
- possibly also issue a report and advice how to improve procedures to ensure this does not happen again.

This is what any professional sector of industry organisation would do and does.

I expect nothing less and if they do not then they and everyone associated with them should be deeply ashamed of themselves. The organisation members should be asking questions about this.

Would you expect the same from a driving instructor when someone speeds and crashes ?
The agency has nothing to do with individuals crossing the line. What they can do is revoke licenses if an instrucor/DM survives. Not much more...

 

[Fish-R-Man]

To be off topic, if you are doing full cave, you should know when you are approaching a situation you can't handle before you get there. I did full cave with one other student. We each thumbed one dive when the cave / situation wasn't to our liking. We also killed one dive plan in the car park cause we didn't like what the instructor suggested. (turns out the instructor threw some bad ideas at us to see how we responded).

Sure we could have pushed on and the two instructors would have probably kept us safe. However, if you are beyond your comfort level get out. Don't rely on others. Your ability to identify when risks are approaching unacceptable and to end the dive is a key part of advanced training.

I think you may have missed my point here. If I am in a situation where I don't feel comfortable, I can always call the dive and get out. What I was refering to is the trust factor. If you are going to be entering a new part of a system, the information provided by your instructor should come from a copious amount of local knowledge. The same goes for any time you are doing open water dives in a new area with a guide. How many times has anyone asked to verify depth during a dive breifing by asking to look at a fathometer. You should be able to trust that the information being provided is factual. If you are a new or inexperienced diver, the possibility exists that they would not have sufficient knowledge to determine if what they are being told is factual or not. In this case if they are being told by a number of "highly" qualified divers are saying the dive will be safe, I can see where they would follow that lead. Looking at the picture of the section they went in and having spent some time in that enviroment you and I would both know the risks involved in entering that type of system. They may be exceptable to you, but it would not be for me. Much less for the people involved in this situation.

 

[TSandM]

You have two competing things going on here. One is what all open water divers should know, which is that they shouldn't be entering wrecks or caves. The other is what dive professionals tell their clients is okay.

There are lots of stories here about dive guides who ignore people who are signalling they are low on air; or dive professionals getting people lost. The bottom line is that blind obedience and trust in the information you get from a dive guide (or boat captain) when it runs counter to what you have been taught is safe, is a bad idea. Unfortunately, I think people WANT to have a taste of diving they aren't really qualified to do (I'm guilty of it myself) and are pretty willing to swallow the reassurances of dive professionals, because they want to believe them. There is fault on both sides.

 

[tstormdiver]

You have two competing things going on here. One is what all open water divers should know, which is that they shouldn't be entering wrecks or caves. The other is what dive professionals tell their clients is okay.

There are lots of stories here about dive guides who ignore people who are signalling they are low on air; or dive professionals getting people lost. The bottom line is that blind obedience and trust in the information you get from a dive guide (or boat captain) when it runs counter to what you have been taught is safe, is a bad idea. Unfortunately, I think people WANT to have a taste of diving they aren't really qualified to do (I'm guilty of it myself) and are pretty willing to swallow the reassurances of dive professionals, because they want to believe them. There is fault on both sides.

I think you are absolutely correct.

 

[Fish-R-Man]

You have two competing things going on here. One is what all open water divers should know, which is that they shouldn't be entering wrecks or caves. The other is what dive professionals tell their clients is okay.

There are lots of stories here about dive guides who ignore people who are signalling they are low on air; or dive professionals getting people lost. The bottom line is that blind obedience and trust in the information you get from a dive guide (or boat captain) when it runs counter to what you have been taught is safe, is a bad idea. Unfortunately, I think people WANT to have a taste of diving they aren't really qualified to do (I'm guilty of it myself) and are pretty willing to swallow the reassurances of dive professionals, because they want to believe them. There is fault on both sides.

I also fully agree with you post. I have had the pleasure of diving with some very good dive guides and also had some that I would not enter the water with again.

I was in Choc Mool the last week in June. During our pre-dive planning there were a couple of other dive guides and an instructor there and we got into a discussion of the incident that happened resently in that system. The guide in that case had 100+ dives (or at least that is what I was told) as a guide. I am not sure how many in that system. The couple that were with him had to reasonably believe that he had enough experience to not get them into any type of serious trouble. I was told that there are an average of 1000+ open water divers in the cavern zones in that area on any given day. The last fatality was 12 years prior. The cavern dive guides have a much better track record for safety than do the guides in Coz. If you take away the thought of blind obedience and just go on the assumption that they could feel some reassurance with the low numbers of incidents and the high number of divers safely completing these types of dives, that they had a managable risk factor when they entered the water. What they may not have known as that they entered the water after 4:00 in the afternoon, that there was going to be limited light in the cavern zone at the end of their dive. The guides I was talking with won't do cavern tours after 2:00. They also may not have known that the guide was on his 4th dive on the same twin set. He was already low on air for this dive by their own rules. Was the fault theirs for not knowing? Or was the fault in the dive guide when complacency set in.....