Four dead in Italian cave

[CT-Rich]

Horse pucky! There are well known and documented ways to reduce the panic factor for almost any undertaking. Unfortunately, because of the stress of the agencies on how to enjoy diving there is far to little attention paid to preparing divers to deal with panic and to teach instructors how to effectively reduce it. As I've observed so often in the past that I feel like I am taking his name in vain, what is the difference between Parker Turner working his way methodically through a cave in, never panicking, till he went unconscious and Joe average diver clawing for the surface because his nose got wet? Think about it. It makes you an average Joe.

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Horse pucky! There are well known and documented ways to reduce the panic factor for almost any undertaking. Unfortunately, because of the stress of the agencies on how to enjoy diving there is far to little attention paid to preparing divers to deal with panic and to teach instructors how to effectively reduce it. As I've observed so often in the past that I feel like I am taking his name in vain, what is the difference between Parker Turner working his way methodically through a cave in, never panicking, till he went unconscious and Joe average diver clawing for the surface because his nose got wet? Think about it. It makes you an average Joe.

It only takes one person panicing in an enclosed space to kill the whole lot of them. From what I read, the guide was one who lost it, hard to tell what happened after that. Clearly a lot of bad judgment to go around. And the most important part of training is not even the skills you learn... it is the ability to surpress panic so a logical solution can be reached. The difference between Parker Turner and Joe average is that Parker had a chance to survive... Joe diver panicing in open water at depth is that Joe might survive by chance.

 

[TSandM]

Those students who have the aptitude for putting what they read into the context of a real-world situation will manage it just fine. Those who have a tendency to learn by doing will not make the connection at a time when it really matters ... and although they were "trained", their training will not help them resolve the problem because they lack the fundamental understanding of when to apply what they learned.​

And the most important part of training is not even the skills you learn... it is the ability to surpress panic so a logical solution can be reached.​

I think this point about suppressing the urge to panic is really key. Even if you understand the situation and have a set of skills in place to deal with it, if it blindsides you enough, your brain's first response may be less than rational. I know I embarrassed myself tremendously, the first time I tried to descend on a stage that wasn't turned on. About four feet underwater, I "ran out of gas". DESPITE the fact that I have been extensively trained to cope with OOG emergencies, and that I was only four feet underwater, the huge surge of adrenaline and the immediate urge to surface caught me by surprise. For a second, my only thought was "OUT OF HERE" -- until my rational mind kicked in and said, "You idiot, turn your gas on."

If you can't either avoid that initial flood of stress hormones, or control the ensuing emotional reaction, you're not going to put your training to work. It is my personal belief that a lot of the ability to do that is intrinsic in the personality of the diver, but it can be improved with the right kind of training.

 

[Soakedlontra]

From Four divers drown in Italian caving accident | Reuters

Oh my God! I spent a summer vacation in Palinuro while I was still living in Italy. I must say it does not surprise me...Last year I dived in Italy for the first time and how can I put it? At times it was a challenge to deal with the divers' 'causal' attitude especially regarding gas management (which was non existent). One time I ended the dive solo because my buddy did not want to go back to the surface and kept diving with one of the 'leaders'.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I think this point about suppressing the urge to panic is really key. Even if you understand the situation and have a set of skills in place to deal with it, if it blindsides you enough, your brain's first response may be less than rational. I know I embarrassed myself tremendously, the first time I tried to descend on a stage that wasn't turned on. About four feet underwater, I "ran out of gas". DESPITE the fact that I have been extensively trained to cope with OOG emergencies, and that I was only four feet underwater, the huge surge of adrenaline and the immediate urge to surface caught me by surprise. For a second, my only thought was "OUT OF HERE" -- until my rational mind kicked in and said, "You idiot, turn your gas on."

If you can't either avoid that initial flood of stress hormones, or control the ensuing emotional reaction, you're not going to put your training to work. It is my personal belief that a lot of the ability to do that is intrinsic in the personality of the diver, but it can be improved with the right kind of training.

Red and Bold added. I can't agree more! Some people are more inclined to panic than others! In my experience people who are prone to panic under one type of stress are more likely to panic in other types of stress. People who are not prone to panic in general stress are more likely to be able to absorb training and apply it in an emergency in spite of being on the edge of panic. I think a good instructor needs to encourage people to do an honest self analysis to determine if the activity is right for them and at what level.

IMHO the current approach to training is so focused on success that it ignores the fact that some people should not succeed in some types of courses. I am not just talking about scuba either. The training programs are written so pretty well anyone can succeed and the pressure is on the instructor if their students don't succeed. Courses are often "sterilized" so the nasty side of things is downplayed or glossed over. Should a person who confess that they faint at the sight of blood be successful in a first aid course?.. should they be in the course in the first place? Should someone prone to panic be in a scuba or first aid course? The Powers that be and those who collect the training $ may be influenced by other issues

Some skills are physical skills that need to become so automatic they become "muscle memory" that means lots of physical practice not an accelerated course with the theory on e-learning and scheduling the minimum hands on time! IMHO there is just too much focus on quick, cheap, simple everyone passes courses. I think this contributes to the number of divers who blindly follow the "professionals" in dangerous "Trust me" dives. They know instinctively their training/skills are not adequate and do not understand that the Professional's may be in the same situation. They have inadequate knowledge to judge the professional's skills and often don't realize their right to question the Pro's!

ok I will put away my

 

[fugly]

Sad and tragic.

 

[antattack]

It's so easy to be lured into dangerous situations. Right after our initial open water certification we joined a boat dive. This must have been our sixth or seventh dive overall. We dove the pinnacles off of Carmel california. The first dive was relatively deep for new divers, maybe 60', but the visibility was good for monterey bay and every thing was easy. On the second dive we were invited to join an instructor who led us to a "Swim through" at 80'. Looking back, a "Swim Through" is an overhead environment and 80' is deeper than a brand new diver, in cold water ad 25' visibility might want to risk.

It was easy, nothing bad happened. And that's the problem. Two months later we were in Thailand and a Dive Master invited us to follow him into a cavern. My wife and I declined and continued on our own, navigating the rest of our dive on our own.

Most divers are a bit more adventurous than most of the population. New divers naturally trust dive professionals. This event illustrates the need for all divers to review dive accidents in order to gain perspective. It's great to learn from experience, and efficient to learn from other peoples experience.

 

[starfish.it]

just an update from the italian newspapers: the owner of the diving center Pesciolino sub, Roberto Navarra, is now officially investigated about the tragedy in Palinuro. I have also read in more than one article that the DM who was leading the dive and also died in the accident, was in Palinuro for the first time. Not sure about how this can be true but it was reported in more than one online article...
I live in Rome, got my certification here and have only been diving in Italy so far. I have 40 logged dives and an AOW cert, have to admit unfortunately that several times I have noticed a superficial attitude in the instructors and guides of diving centers around Italy. My husband is a DM with lots of experience and he was asked several times to lead dives that he did not know just because of the number of divers on the boat and just not enough guides to look over all of them, often OWD!! (for the record he refused...). Recently he just shows his AOW certificate so not to be asked... at the same times not every diving center in Italy is like that!! our very good friend had dove that cave last year and she remembers the sign at the entrance of the muddy cunicle... too bad it wasn't there anymore. It is just sad that filling up diving boat and cashing in money from divers sometimes comes prior to safety and appropriate preparation.

 

[dadediver]

I think this point about suppressing the urge to panic is really key. Even if you understand the situation and have a set of skills in place to deal with it, if it blindsides you enough, your brain's first response may be less than rational. I know I embarrassed myself tremendously, the first time I tried to descend on a stage that wasn't turned on. About four feet underwater, I "ran out of gas". DESPITE the fact that I have been extensively trained to cope with OOG emergencies, and that I was only four feet underwater, the huge surge of adrenaline and the immediate urge to surface caught me by surprise. For a second, my only thought was "OUT OF HERE" -- until my rational mind kicked in and said, "You idiot, turn your gas on."

If you can't either avoid that initial flood of stress hormones, or control the ensuing emotional reaction, you're not going to put your training to work. It is my personal belief that a lot of the ability to do that is intrinsic in the personality of the diver, but it can be improved with the right kind of training.

The military believes this also. This is why in most training for the SOG groups, you only get two bites at the apple for an evoloution. It is the mental stress that must be overcome, over coming the stress before it turns into panic, by problem solving under great duress.

"Fear cannot be banished, but it can be calm and without panic; it can be mitigated by reason and evaluation."

 

[tstormdiver]

"Fear cannot be banished, but it can be calm and without panic; it can be mitigated by reason and evaluation."

Just about the same as what Sheck Exley said. "Survival depend on being able to supress anxiety & replace it with calm, clear, quick & correct reasoning."

 

[Bombay High]

I have heard from three of my Italian contacts two had more info and one of those sending me more. His message was the papers are not putting out the full truth. Not surprising.

Thats sums up the situation in Italy.
When the Costa Concordia sank, after day 2 it became apparent that there were 2 groups of people alive in the engine room and galley.

We were put on standby, and our company had 2 chambers mobilised and surface supply gear on small barges and land based moved into position.
We could have cut our way in and out of there in very short order. We had the chambers on standby to move people who might be in air saturation.
Everything was in place.
We sat and twiddled our thumbs and watched in frustration as the carabinieri divers went in open circuit scuba, no lines, posing for photos that painted them in the Italian press as 'heroes'.
They never reached any of these people.
We packed up and left after 5 days, when it became apparent that it was now too late to do anything anyway.