Four dead in Italian cave

[IJS]

by highly trained and well equipped small groups

You mean blokes such as proper cave divers.

 

[Chilly_Dipper]

I think I'll throw a another troll on this fire

Truth is doesn't matter what your training and backgrounds are you simply don't know how you will react to a situation like this unless you have been in it. And being in several (not dive related) situations of similar ilk with people that had received the same training I had you still have high chance of someone panicking and escalating the situation to mortal levels. Training does help but in no way is it the magic salve to prevent travesties such as this from happening.

We are all responsible for our own safety in and out of the water. If you follow an idiot what does that make you

Cheers,
CD

 

[boulderjohn]

If you follow an idiot what does that make you

Research studies show that people who are not themselves experts in a skill cannot easily identify true expertise. People who pay to follow a professional dive guide into a situation they have been assured (by professionals) is safe are doing something that is pretty understandable.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think I'll throw a another troll on this fire Truth is doesn't matter what your training and backgrounds are you simply don't know how you will react to a situation like this unless you have been in it. And being in several (not dive related) situations of similar ilk with people that had received the same training I had you still have high chance of someone panicking and escalating the situation to mortal levels. Training does help but in no way is it the magic salve to prevent travesties such as this from happening.

Horse pucky! There are well known and documented ways to reduce the panic factor for almost any undertaking. Unfortunately, because of the stress of the agencies on how to enjoy diving there is far to little attention paid to preparing divers to deal with panic and to teach instructors how to effectively reduce it. As I've observed so often in the past that I feel like I am taking his name in vain, what is the difference between Parker Turner working his way methodically through a cave in, never panicking, till he went unconscious and Joe average diver clawing for the surface because his nose got wet? Think about it.

We are all responsible for our own safety in and out of the water. If you follow an idiot what does that make you Cheers, CD

It makes you an average Joe.

---------- Post Merged at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:28 PM ----------

I think I'll throw a another troll on this fire Truth is doesn't matter what your training and backgrounds are you simply don't know how you will react to a situation like this unless you have been in it. And being in several (not dive related) situations of similar ilk with people that had received the same training I had you still have high chance of someone panicking and escalating the situation to mortal levels. Training does help but in no way is it the magic salve to prevent travesties such as this from happening.

Horse pucky! There are well known and documented ways to reduce the panic factor for almost any undertaking. Unfortunately, because of the stress of the agencies on how to enjoy diving there is far to little attention paid to preparing divers to deal with panic and to teach instructors how to effectively reduce it. As I've observed so often in the past that I feel like I am taking his name in vain, what is the difference between Parker Turner working his way methodically through a cave in, never panicking, till he went unconscious and Joe average diver clawing for the surface because his nose got wet? Think about it.

We are all responsible for our own safety in and out of the water. If you follow an idiot what does that make you Cheers, CD

It makes you an average Joe.

 

[wedivebc]

That has absolutely been opposite to my experience. I have been in several tricky situations and every time my training kicked n before I even had time to be scared.
If that has not been your experience may I suggest you seek better trainin.g

I think I'll throw a another troll on this fire

Truth is doesn't matter what your training and backgrounds are you simply don't know how you will react to a situation like this unless you have been in it. And being in several (not dive related) situations of similar ilk with people that had received the same training I had you still have high chance of someone panicking and escalating the situation to mortal levels. Training does help but in no way is it the magic salve to prevent travesties such as this from happening.

We are all responsible for our own safety in and out of the water. If you follow an idiot what does that make you

Cheers,
CD

 

[windapp]

I think I'll throw a another troll on this fire

Truth is doesn't matter what your training and backgrounds are you simply don't know how you will react to a situation like this unless you have been in it.

If the people in this tragedy had been throroughly trained about the hazards of overhead dving, they wouldn't have entered the environment without running a line. They would have known that a silt out would almost inevitably kill them. I was fortunate to have been trained in OW and AOW by someone who does this kind of diving, and has been properly trained to do so I was able to benefit from his experience. The reason why people like TSandM, Boulder John, and Cave Diver are continuously warning us about this sort of thing is that they have been in these situtations where a seamingly simple penetration has gone from full clear water to a complete silt out. They know that if they hadn't run a line and been trained how to follow it, they wouldn't be here today to warn us about it.

 

[Chilly_Dipper]

Horse pucky! There are well known and documented ways to reduce the panic factor for almost any undertaking. Unfortunately, because of the stress of the agencies on how to enjoy diving there is far to little attention paid to preparing divers to deal with panic and to teach instructors how to effectively reduce it.

Agreed there are skills and techniques to reduce panic and regain control BUT my point was that simply having a cert card does not make you bullet proof. Even if people show mastery of these skills in a controlled environment their is still the chance they will not have the presence of mind to use them when the time comes.

As I've observed so often in the past that I feel like I am taking his name in vain, what is the difference between Parker Turner working his way methodically through a cave in, never panicking, till he went unconscious and Joe average diver clawing for the surface because his nose got wet? Think about it. It makes you an average Joe.


Doesn't say much for the average Joe now does it? Engage your brain and think for yourself is all I'm saying, but hey if everyone did that where would we be?

---------- Post Merged at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:12 AM ----------

If the people in this tragedy had been throroughly trained about the hazards of overhead dving, they wouldn't have entered the environment without running a line. They would have known that a silt out would almost inevitably kill them.

No guarantee on that which is my point...

I've seen a lot of highly certified and trained morons out there (not exclusive to SCUBA diving)

 

[JamesK]

chilly dipper, you are right even trained people can be morons. However having training and choosing to ignore it is simple stupidity. Having no training you don't even realize what it is that will kill you or how dangerous what you are about to do really is. We can not make sure that every be uses their training, we can not make sure that every one gets training. However we can do our best to get the message out on the hazards and risks of diving above your training and diving with obvious strokes. And yes, I used the terms strokes, because the people leading these dives are obviously unsafe divers.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Agreed there are skills and techniques to reduce panic and regain control BUT my point was that simply having a cert card does not make you bullet proof. Even if people show mastery of these skills in a controlled environment their is still the chance they will not have the presence of mind to use them when the time comes.

I've seen a lot of highly certified and trained morons out there (not exclusive to SCUBA diving)

This speaks more to how they were trained than what they were trained.

Ask yourself why people panic ... what is panic? It's an instinctive response to being faced with a problem you don't know how to resolve.

Training is intended to help us resolve problems. But it only works if we understand the "why" as well as the "what" of problem resolution ... because training is an artificial environment that provides us the tools of problem resolution ... not the craft of applying those tools. What happens with a lot of people is that they know ... at a certain level ... what they should do, because they learned it in class or read about it somewhere. But there's a big difference between knowing and understanding ... or applying. Put that person under stress, or in a task-loaded situation, and in the context of the situation it will never occur to them to do something they were trained to do ... because they didn't really learn during their training ... they memorized.

This is one of the shortcomings of our current training model for scuba ... even moreso with eLearning ... it lacks context. Those students who have the aptitude for putting what they read into the context of a real-world situation will manage it just fine. Those who have a tendency to learn by doing will not make the connection at a time when it really matters ... and although they were "trained", their training will not help them resolve the problem because they lack the fundamental understanding of when to apply what they learned. And so they fall back on instinct ... and that sometimes leads to panic.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Crush]

Research studies show that people who are not themselves experts in a skill cannot easily identify true expertise. People who pay to follow a professional dive guide into a situation they have been assured (by professionals) is safe are doing something that is pretty understandable.

True, but the divers bear some responsibility, as do possibly their OW instructors. I believe that Jim shows his OW students a video dramatization of untrained divers dying in caves (Jim: is this correct). My daughter is only 8 but when I described this cave tragedy she correctly identified it as a "trust me" dive. Further, when I asked her what to do when someone asks her to take part in a "trust me" dive she correctly responded "don't do it." I am under no illusion that this "programming" will last forever and in all situations, but if an 8 year old can identify the peril, surely an adult (with the proper training which includes knowledge of the limits of their training) can.