Four dead in Italian cave

[MarkHerm]

I think, if you are unable to see and you're frantically feeling for an opening, you'll do things that don't make any sense to someone who is not in that situation. I'm sure, if they could have SEEN the opening, they would have known they didn't come in that way. But the reports suggest that low or zero viz played a significant role in this accident.

Maybe I got this wrong but I was under the impression that they choose the wrong tunnel (hence purposely went in there at first), kicked up the silt/mud and then were unable to see and therefore unable to find the way back out of this wrong tunnel. But we'll never know for sure unfortunately.
Edit: Of course, when you cannot see you'll go anywhere and try anything, especially when untrained and panicked.

 

[DandyDon]

If that is the way they dive a cave, then unfortunately this accident won't be the last. So many violations of cave diving there it is a miracle that this is the first incident at the cave.

Daru

It wasn't the first time for fatalities. It is amazing that they don't happen more often, but there had been others.

 

[PfcAJ]

We can sit here and think of "what if" all day, Tammy ... but it's all speculation, which is why I used qualifiers such as "likely" and "increased the odds". You don't know how they would've reacted ... neither do I. But the fact is that a guideline would've at least given them a clue which way to go to get out. We don't know that vis was completely blown out. We don't know a lot of things about this accident. But one thing we do know is that guidelines in an overhead save lives. They should have had one, and its use would have greatly increased the odds of a better ending.

Granted, they didn't belong there. Fact is, there were many factors leading up to this accident ... untrained divers, a guide unfamiliar with the site ... and probably himself untrained for overhead diving, lack of skill at preventing a silt-out, insufficient gas and gas plan for overhead, and probably a few more we don't know about. All of these factors contributed to the chain of events that led to this accident. Quite likely mitigating any one of them could have led to a different outcome. We really don't know.

What we do know is that they got lost and went down a wrong passage ... and subsequently ran out of air. A guideline would have provided an important clue where the passage out was ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Having been in more than a handful of siltouts, I know the line is the ONLY chance you've got. Without it, you're completely screwed. The vis probably isn't going to get much better (unless there is some flow and/or you STOP moving), and the needle on your pressure gauge is only going in one direction: down. Tick tock...

If people are going to continue to take untrained divers into caves (which is stupid beyond the pale), they should at LEAST put in a proper, thick, well placed, solidly tied off, guideline. The thing they do down in Mexico with guides and proper lines seems somewhat reasonable (although I'm still opposed to the whole thing).

While these poor divers put the nails in their own coffins, a line would have given them a (slight) chance of getting out alive.

 

[windapp]

The idea of being completely lost in a cave while my spg just keeps reading lower and lower pressures gives me the shivers.

 

[tstormdiver]

The idea of being completely lost in a cave while my spg just keeps reading lower and lower pressures gives me the shivers.

.....And so it should.......

 

[darushin]

It wasn't the first time for fatalities. It is amazing that they don't happen more often, but there had been others.

Now that sounds more like it. Just watching that video made me cringe in disgust. No line, No fin technique, looked like only one light, no equipment trim, no redundant air supply and probably a 100 more things that I didn't bother looking for because I knew they were clueless.

Daru

 

[Ayisha]

I am going to respectfully disagree. A guideline may or may not have saved them. Yes, it would certainly increase the odds, but then,... how many Open Water divers automatically know how to use a guideline? Most of the time you'll see them pulling themselves along it, not just "OK'ing" it with thumb & index finger & following it under their own power. Now imagine some freaked out divers in 0 vis,.. do you think they'll just follow the line out? Not likely, they're not thinking clearly. They would likely pull even harder to get themselves out quicker. In that pulling, the guideline would likely come unraveled, becoming an entangling web floating in the cave or even worse, the guideline is pulled on so hard that a sharp rock severs the line,... now no clear path out. Speculating?... yes. Possible? Certainly. I was reading a news article about this incident. It was amazing on the board there, how many people think that just a guideline is the only answer. In cave diving aguideline is certainly important, but it is only a small part of the skills & equipment used.

A guideline may have prevented the disorientation of the guide in the first place regardless of what the clients may have done with the line after the siltout.

 

[Sorrows]

This recent thread: Chandelier Cave - safe for AOW diver? may be instructive in light of this incident. It certainly raises some salient points on both sides of the coin.


All the best, James

I would absolutely never even attempt a cave dive like the ones mentioned here, but I have been to Chadelier in Palau twice. I don't believe it's technically a cave dive at all--you're never really enclosed completely and you can get up to get some air (that's part of the fun of it). It's also quite small, so I would imagine it would be very hard to get lost. Of course, we had a guide each time, so perhaps that is the difference?

In any case, even thinking about cave diving gives me the heebie-jeebies--no way out!--but Chandelier was pretty tame. IMHO.

 

[sempliciotto]

A few points:
1) Yes the forum you (Lemma) linked, is the one I am reading too (all the information I am giving is from there)
2) The picture is exactly the picture of the muddy branch, and in fact also the local guide who is reporting on the forum could not believe that a guide had led a group inside there, since it is pretty difficult to confuse that tunnel with something else
3) The sign was set in place by volunteers some time ago, but was not anymore in place at the moment of the accident
4) I have no idea about the youtube video; it is not from the same diving center and I don't know if they work in different ways
5) I don't think the guide was untrained for overhead; this will be clarified by the inquiry, but I consider it unlike
6) There are reports from survivors. The guide (not the local guide who unfortunately did not survive) who was the organizer of the divers managed to find the right way back and to lead a couple of them to the light
7) It is known that viz went completely out when they entered the muddy branch
8) The muddy branch can be explored, and actually it is, by highly trained and well equipped small groups

---------- Post Merged at 02:23 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:11 AM ----------

If this is really the picture of the tunnel in which this accident happened, I am truely puzzled that the guide and the customers tried to squeeze in there. I know I am personally a very cautious diver but a tunnel that small and dark should really set of the alarm glocks of any open water diver out there.

The extremely sad moral of this story is that open water divers that are neither equiped nor trained for overhead have to stay out of the caves.​

I don't know anything about diving, cave diving, etc. but I basically agree with you.
I find unacceptable that my life would be completely in the hands of somebody, and that in case of a mistake of him I would have no chance to survive.
Even if it would be required a *huge* mistake from him, as it appears in this case, this is not a safe system.

 

[windapp]

5) I don't think the guide was untrained for overhead; this will be clarified by the inquiry, but I consider it unlike

If the guy was trained, then, he was completely ignoring his training.