Four dead in Italian cave

[sempliciotto]

As I said, I'm not a diver. But for what I read, the greatest problem was not the low level of training of the divers; it was the lack of local knowledge of the guide, who led the group where should not have been.
The guide who was there during the rescue and who described all the story on the forum insisted very much on this point: it is not a matter of formal, certified training; it is a matter of local experience.

 

[DevonDiver]

As I said, I'm not a diver. But for what I read, the greatest problem was not the low level of training of the divers; it was the lack of local knowledge of the guide, who led the group where should not have been.
The guide who was there during the rescue and who described all the story on the forum insisted very much on this point: it is not a matter of formal, certified training; it is a matter of local experience.

There is zero 'local experience' needed to decide that a cave/cavern is NOT an open-water environment.

The simple ability to 'look upwards' and notice a ceiling of rock above... rather than the surface of the water... is sufficient expert knowledge to identify the dive environment that you are entering.

I'll demonstrate the concept in simple terms... you are sat on your computer right now... look upwards. What do you see?


Again... no local knowledge needed to understand these terms either:

Open Water Environment = direct and unobstructed access to the surface.

Open Water Diver = one trained only to dive in Open Water environments.

Cavern Environment = overhead environment, within the light-zone (visible exit to open water | divers in natural light)

Cavern Diver = one trained to dive in Cavern environments

Cave Environment = overhead environment, beyond the light-zone, with restrictions, not illuminated by natural light.

Cave Diver = one trained to dive in Cave environments.

 

[MarkHerm]

As I said, I'm not a diver. But for what I read, the greatest problem was not the low level of training of the divers; it was the lack of local knowledge of the guide, who led the group where should not have been.
The guide who was there during the rescue and who described all the story on the forum insisted very much on this point: it is not a matter of formal, certified training; it is a matter of local experience.

I agree with DevonDiver. In this case there are obviously multiple violations of standard diving rules and poor decision making by all involved (shop, guide and customers) that you simply cannot attribute the accident to a lack of local knowledge of the guide alone.

 

[whereisthesea]

If they had dived by the way they should have done, we would not have been argueing about this fatality, and they would have finished their dive without any mishap. There are dozens of dives per day around the world, made by OW in cavern environments, without going any further, all that take place in the Cenotes at Riviera Maya, and nobody here is shocked by this term. IMO was a poor decision made by the guide, taking the group by the wrong place.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If they had dived by the way they should have done, we would not have been argueing about this fatality, and they would have finished their dive without any mishap. There are dozens of dives per day around the world, made by OW in cavern environments, without going any further, all that take place in the Cenotes at Riviera Maya, and nobody here is shocked by this term. IMO was a poor decision made by the guide, taking the group by the wrong place.

But there's an important difference between cenote diving in the Riviera Maya and what occurred here ... in the cenotes they use guidelines. Most cenotes have permanent lines installed, and guides are required to stay on them. In the one cenote I went into that didn't have a permanent guideline (Car Wash), the dive guide ran a reel.

The use of a guideline in this incident would likely have saved these people's lives ... it would certainly, even in a complete silt-out, have increased the odds for a better outcome.

Yes, people do dives like this every day around the world ... and usually, but not always, survive them. But when you do that, you're increasing the odds for an accident ... and sooner or later they will catch up to somebody. Ignoring multiple rules for diving in an overhead increases the odds of an accident significantly. In this case, these people gambled on a bad day ... and it cost them way more than the dive was worth.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

IMO was a poor decision made by the guide

The first poor decision was made by the dive shop running a trip to a dive to a site called blood cave and then signing on divers with valid OW cards. From there things were always likely to spiral out of control one day.

Using an open water DM or Instructor to guide the dive was not smart either.

Pity that four had to die to learn the lesson. There are any number of recognised cave agencies around that provide training for the hazards of this envirnment.

 

[Quero]

Deceased
Douglas Rizzo, 41 yo (Group guide)
Andrea Petroni, 41 yo
Susy Cavaccini, 36 yo
Panaghiotis Telios, 23 yo

Survivors
Marco Sebastiani (Instructor)
Maria Laura Mosquera,21yo
Roberto Navarra (Owner of the local dive center), not sure if he was with the group or went in lately to search the missing.
?
??

The other survivor was Stefano d'Avec, reportedly also a scuba instructor.

---------- Post Merged at 08:37 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:28 PM ----------

Does anybody know what the name of the dive center was/is? Which organisations are working with this dive center? And are these organisations launching investigations to give the dive center sanctions. Was this for instance a Padi center? I would very much like to know what the dive industry is going to do!

I find it strange no dive industry organisations have put out statements or press releases?

Yes, I mentioned the name of the dive center in an earlier post. It's called Pesciolino Sub. It's an SSI-affiliated dive center. Typically there is an investigation by the agency a dive center is affiliated with when an accident takes place. Whether there would be any sanctions, such as terminating the relationship between the dive center and the agency, would depend on whether there was a conclusion of negligence and breaking of standards of safe diving practice. I would be surprised if the agency released a press statement, though in the case of an expulsion from the agency, there might be some notification of it in the agency's website somewhere.

 

[windapp]

It is human nature to follow someone in a position of trust and authority. It is often a very difficult urge to resist. An individual or buddy team, through experience, and knowledge, may be able to use his/her judgement to deviate from standard protocols. It is their own lives that they are placing in jeopardy if that judgement call proves incorrect and nobody elses.

Dive operations, and dive guides, on the other hand, have an absolute responsibility to adhere to the letter of the standards that are available. I don't care how many times you have safely entered a particular cave or overhead environment. If it doesn't meet the criteria for the training level of the divers you are bringing or for your own training, you have no right to lead others into that situation.

 

[Lemna]

As I said, I'm not a diver. But for what I read, the greatest problem was not the low level of training of the divers; it was the lack of local knowledge of the guide, who led the group where should not have been.
The guide who was there during the rescue and who described all the story on the forum insisted very much on this point: it is not a matter of formal, certified training; it is a matter of local experience.

Hi sempliciotto,

There are several commercials of local divecenters offering this dive on youtube. Take a look at those, for example this one: Immersione Grotta degli Occhi e del Sangue - Palinuro 06.07.2008 - YouTube . Diving the way they do in those videos will cause you trouble at the slightest trace of silt or mud, whether you are in a cave or not, whether you have a lot of local knowledge or not.

 

[darushin]

Hi sempliciotto,

There are several commercials of local divecenters offering this dive on youtube. Take a look at those, for example this one: Immersione Grotta degli Occhi e del Sangue - Palinuro 06.07.2008 - YouTube . Diving the way they do in those videos will cause you trouble at the slightest trace of silt or mud, whether you are in a cave or not, whether you have a lot of local knowledge or not.

If that is the way they dive a cave, then unfortunately this accident won't be the last. So many violations of cave diving there it is a miracle that this is the first incident at the cave.

Daru