FL Cavern instructor

[JahJahwarrior]

B Lo, I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I’ve never met an instructor who acted as a king that you had to get to like you in order to get a card.

Cave certification is not like an academic certification, it’s much more like a driving test, a pilots license, etc. As an instructor, you would not pass someone who told you about their plan to fly above their level, for example a simple VFR rated student, about to solo, who tells you that he doesn’t believe in IFR ratings and who is constantly trying to rent a plane to go fly when conditions are not at the VFR level, and then he throws in that his buddy has a twin engine plane that he will borrow to take the family on long trips over water, and he doesn’t need to consider emergency fuel planning because he has an EPIRB and he can land on a road anyways. Even if that student can take off and land, the instructor might not want to have his name attached to that student, who is planning on taking unacceptable risks.

In that case, it is pretty cut and dried. In others, it’s not so cut and dried. When a diver dies, the reason for their death has potential to reflect on the instructor. If that pilot student crashed and killed his family in the ocean, running out of fuel in a thunderstorm in that twin engine plane, and people find out that the instructor had concerns over the students plans or attitude toward safety, it could ruin the instructors career, as well as make him use all of his liability insurance life limits!

And we have had situations in cave country where people died on dives they were not certified to do after flunking lower level courses. There is currently a lawsuit from one of the deceased’s family that threatens one of the main cave diving organizations. It’s a fact of life that just because someone paid for class time doesn’t mean they always get a card right away. I think every parent goes through this with their child learning to drive a car—when they turn 16 and have a year of driving under supervision, legally they can get a drivers license and go off alone. But, many parents don’t take their kid to the DMV until they are sure the kid has the right attitude toward driving. It’s not at all about a power trip.

You can absolutely choose your instructor based on your parameters. There are instructors with loose standards, who still manage to not have students die after certification, so far. It is important to find an instructor with a teaching style that works for you. I really like instructors who work hard to make your class fun, and who can let you know what you did stupid, without making you feel stupid. Some instructors take you under their wing for the entire class weekend and will make sure you have company at meals and such, which can help you meet people in cave country and chitchat about real life cave diving stuff. Other instructors show up for the class, and then after debriefing and planning the meeting time in the morning, head off to do their own thing. Some will give you an extra day or two of instruction for free, others charge by the day if you need extra work. Some want you to meet at 8am, some at 9, some at 10. Some want you to bring a meal to eat, others want to debrief at a restaurant after the dives. Some stick to one shop, others will take you around to multiple shops. There are men and women, and people who teach on the side and some who teach full time, some who explore and some who guide, some who have experience in caves around the world, some who mostly dive in their area, some who dive backmount only, some sidemount only, and some who do both, even some on rebreathers. Some who teach arrows for jumps, some who teach cookies, some who teach arrows and cookies, and some who teach clothespins. Some will show up in a drysuit year round, others dive a wetsuit in the summer. Some come prepared with backups if you or they have an equipment problem, others don’t. Some teach tables and a bottom timer, some teach computers but prefer VPM and some prefer Buhlmann. There’s even some who teach to stuff the long hose. It’s amazing the different varieties of personality you can find in cave diving, considering it’s not that big of a sport.

The advice to just call and chat is great. Don’t call and get defensive, just call and discuss the class. Find out where they like to teach it, ask them what their best student memory was, and what their worst student ever did to be considered the worst. Ask what the entire day is like in their class, ask how they handle telling you that you did the lights out air share drill poorly and would have killed your buddy. It will probably be a 30 minute to hour long phone call, but if you have a top 5 to call based on their diving resume, you can probably narrow it down to 2 favorites after a phone call, then just see which instructor has a better calendar opening for you. I think you will find that everyone you call will be down to earth and very interested in helping you learn to cavern dive safely. Your assumption that a measurement of someone's attitude means the instructor has to like you is wrong, you misunderstood completely.

 

[kwinter]

Since you mention college professors, as a college professor, I would like to point out a glaring inconsistency in your post. I agree that college professors don't generally care for your feelings (when tallying grades). As such, we grade in as objective a manner as possible. Contrast that with something absolutely subjective. One's attitude is utterly subjective.

I am also a college professor. And I can say without hesitation that attitude plays a part in learning as well as teaching. I have colleagues that are experts in their fields and know every significant fact, but I would not recommend as an instructor because they have a poor attitude toward teaching that will make it more difficult for a student to learn. I also have seen many students with a poor attitude toward learning that, despite the ability to adequately regurgitate facts or demonstrate a procedure, make them a risk or hazard in fully understanding the material and how it integrates with other knowledge. There is always a portion of education that is subjective. And granting anyone the permission to perform an act, whether it is cavern diving or proceeding to the next level in academia, involves an assessment of character. Based on your posts, you seem to already have an attitude issue when it comes to learning. Humility goes a long way in learning, much more than hubris.

 

[B Lo]

I appreciate your contribution to this thread. You've clearly articulated your position and gone the extra mile to support it with facts. Oh, wait. Sorry, wrong person.

Man, you really sound like you've got it ALL figured out.

If there is one ego that needs to be checked at the door, its yours.

You raise some excellent points. If you whittle it down, you are actually citing objective indicators of a problem. If one has an objective reason to fail someone, God bless. The distinction that appears to inflame a great deal so many is that one's subjective opinion of another's attitude, absent any articulable reason, is an improper reason to fail someone. As might amaze those looking to pick a fight, I've never had an instructor voice any level of dissatisfaction with my attitude before, during, or after a class. This is with perhaps ten or more instructors ranging the gamut of recreational certification.

While this doesn't apply to you, it seems that folks in a particular camp love to jump on the bandwagon and bash my statements but they absolutely are incapable of citing a logical reason to contradict what I've written.Instead, I've seen posts trying to twist what I've written into something more easily refuted.

If being a "headache," as I was called earlier in the thread, means that I'm not someone who will pay to be berated by an instructor with an attitude akin to some of those we've seen in this thread, I'll take being called a "headache" as a compliment. The funny thing is that this atmosphere is so hostile in this thread that I've gotten private messages from folks who agree but are apparently disinclined to post in this thread for fear of being flamed. If a mod feels like verifying that, go for it. Folks seem to believe that it's well and good to heckle others when the most vocal publicly agree - regardless of whether they're right or wrong.

B Lo, I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I’ve never met an instructor who acted as a king that you had to get to like you in order to get a card.

Cave certification is not like an academic certification, it’s much more like a driving test, a pilots license, etc. As an instructor, you would not pass someone who told you about their plan to fly above their level, for example a simple VFR rated student, about to solo, who tells you that he doesn’t believe in IFR ratings and who is constantly trying to rent a plane to go fly when conditions are not at the VFR level, and then he throws in that his buddy has a twin engine plane that he will borrow to take the family on long trips over water, and he doesn’t need to consider emergency fuel planning because he has an EPIRB and he can land on a road anyways. Even if that student can take off and land, the instructor might not want to have his name attached to that student, who is planning on taking unacceptable risks.

In that case, it is pretty cut and dried. In others, it’s not so cut and dried. When a diver dies, the reason for their death has potential to reflect on the instructor. If that pilot student crashed and killed his family in the ocean, running out of fuel in a thunderstorm in that twin engine plane, and people find out that the instructor had concerns over the students plans or attitude toward safety, it could ruin the instructors career, as well as make him use all of his liability insurance life limits!

And we have had situations in cave country where people died on dives they were not certified to do after flunking lower level courses. There is currently a lawsuit from one of the deceased’s family that threatens one of the main cave diving organizations. It’s a fact of life that just because someone paid for class time doesn’t mean they always get a card right away. I think every parent goes through this with their child learning to drive a car—when they turn 16 and have a year of driving under supervision, legally they can get a drivers license and go off alone. But, many parents don’t take their kid to the DMV until they are sure the kid has the right attitude toward driving. It’s not at all about a power trip.

You can absolutely choose your instructor based on your parameters. There are instructors with loose standards, who still manage to not have students die after certification, so far. It is important to find an instructor with a teaching style that works for you. I really like instructors who work hard to make your class fun, and who can let you know what you did stupid, without making you feel stupid. Some instructors take you under their wing for the entire class weekend and will make sure you have company at meals and such, which can help you meet people in cave country and chitchat about real life cave diving stuff. Other instructors show up for the class, and then after debriefing and planning the meeting time in the morning, head off to do their own thing. Some will give you an extra day or two of instruction for free, others charge by the day if you need extra work. Some want you to meet at 8am, some at 9, some at 10. Some want you to bring a meal to eat, others want to debrief at a restaurant after the dives. Some stick to one shop, others will take you around to multiple shops. There are men and women, and people who teach on the side and some who teach full time, some who explore and some who guide, some who have experience in caves around the world, some who mostly dive in their area, some who dive backmount only, some sidemount only, and some who do both, even some on rebreathers. Some who teach arrows for jumps, some who teach cookies, some who teach arrows and cookies, and some who teach clothespins. Some will show up in a drysuit year round, others dive a wetsuit in the summer. Some come prepared with backups if you or they have an equipment problem, others don’t. Some teach tables and a bottom timer, some teach computers but prefer VPM and some prefer Buhlmann. There’s even some who teach to stuff the long hose. It’s amazing the different varieties of personality you can find in cave diving, considering it’s not that big of a sport.

The advice to just call and chat is great. Don’t call and get defensive, just call and discuss the class. Find out where they like to teach it, ask them what their best student memory was, and what their worst student ever did to be considered the worst. Ask what the entire day is like in their class, ask how they handle telling you that you did the lights out air share drill poorly and would have killed your buddy. It will probably be a 30 minute to hour long phone call, but if you have a top 5 to call based on their diving resume, you can probably narrow it down to 2 favorites after a phone call, then just see which instructor has a better calendar opening for you. I think you will find that everyone you call will be down to earth and very interested in helping you learn to cavern dive safely. Your assumption that a measurement of someone's attitude means the instructor has to like you is wrong, you misunderstood completely.

Your second to last sentence strikes me as the exact type of impulsive and subjective judgment that I have no interest in paying money to be subjected to. That said, you are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that fairness and clear standards go a long way in learning. If my desire not to be subjected to someone's arbitrarily subjective decisions makes me appear egotistical, you might want to see if the college will let you audit a basic psychology class or two. While apparently the norm in this thread, that is not a normal human reaction to what I've written.

I am also a college professor. And I can say without hesitation that attitude plays a part in learning as well as teaching. I have colleagues that are experts in their fields and know every significant fact, but I would not recommend as an instructor because they have a poor attitude toward teaching that will make it more difficult for a student to learn. I also have seen many students with a poor attitude toward learning that, despite the ability to adequately regurgitate facts or demonstrate a procedure, make them a risk or hazard in fully understanding the material and how it integrates with other knowledge. There is always a portion of education that is subjective. And granting anyone the permission to perform an act, whether it is cavern diving or proceeding to the next level in academia, involves an assessment of character. Based on your posts, you seem to already have an attitude issue when it comes to learning. Humility goes a long way in learning, much more than hubris.

 

[nimoh]

Mods, can we shut down this thread?

That's a good plan. As more cave instructors see this thread, it will become harder for you to find a cave instructor willing to teach you

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Best of luck finding an instructor.

 

[The Chairman]

I think Trace's depiction of Jim, as being full of information but not of himself, is incredibly accurate and fair. Jim is a very methodical diver/instructor and full of patience. I loved the way he taught Mselenaous basic cave and he made sure that her attitude was safe... very safe.

However, as you can see, with greater danger comes an increased candor in regards to attitudes and skill level. Yes, cavers can be rather harsh with people who don't quite understand the dangers involved. They do it part because they care about you, but mostly because they don't want your death/injury to spoil their love affair with the caves.

 

[ucfdiver]

I'm anxious to hear who accepts you as a student. It sounds like they would have to be really hurting for money.

 

[uncfnp]

I can see why he is concerned that attitude might fail him...

 

[B Lo]

Funny though it may be to you, I've had multiple instructors who have viewed this thread offer to teach me. I invite a mod to verify this.

It may amaze you, but not every instructor is belligerent and egotistical. Some folks respect those who have self respect and can articulate a logical argument. Others prefer stupid lemmings who will follow the others off the cliff. Let me know how the view is on the way down - preferably before you hit the bottom.

That's a good plan. As more cave instructors see this thread, it will become harder for you to find a cave instructor willing to teach you

 

[JahJahwarrior]

B Lo, just so I understand, my second to last sentence was “I think you will find that everyone you call will be down to earth and very interested in helping you learn to cavern dive safely.” You said that is indicative of an “impulsive and subjective judgement.”

Note: I see your comment about impulsive judgement was related to another post you quoted, my mistake!

. I was merely responding to your concerns that instructors in cavern diving have an egotistical outlook which must be appeased in order for you to pass your class. My point was, if you call them, you will see that they are there to help you pass. If they stop very many people from passing, their reputation would be very poor. Cave instructors are there to instruct, and as long as the student has a receptive attitude—that is, they list to the advice and make the necessary changes, and follow safety guidelines, then they will eventually pass the class. I’ve never met an instructor who was happy that a student didn’t pass, their goal is always to find a way to improve the skills of the student so they can pass.

I think you misunderstood or are worrying too much over something quite innocuous. You seem to feel that cave instructors are there to pass judgment on whether you are a nice guy, and you seem unwilling to reconsider your fear that instructors are incredibly arbitrary and subjective might be unfounded in practice, or to even consider that attitude is something which can be indicated by objective observations during a class.

I think you also expressed a concern that I think you are egotistical…which is wrong. I do not know where you got that impression. I do think you are confused, but there are very few people I think are egotistical, and none of them are the instructors who were listed above. Every single one of them is a pretty darn good instructor and all around nice guy, and I bet you are as well.

I think the people responding with sarcasm are betting you have some point to make, or are trying to troll us, due to what looks like an out of proportion response to a minor clause that all of us had to agree to, and found no issue with. It’s like a store that has a sign up that says “we reserve the right to refuse service if management deems necessary.” Because most of us are reasonable, not unruly, etc, most of us have never been kicked out of a restaurant. So if you go in, and start yelling at the staff that they should attach objective limits to the sign for each and every possibly bad behavior and the limit that will get them kicked out, seems like an out of proportion response to the small sign posted by the door. And, if you ask the few people that are asked to leave every year, I think most of them will admit later on that they were being kind of bad and deserved to get kicked out, but you’ll always have a few that don’t get it. There’s a comedian who talks about seeing a glass display case in line at the airport of all the items which aren’t allowed, but were tried to be brought on to airplanes. One of the items was a chainsaw, in carry on luggage. He said most of us probably look at that and go “what kind of person thinks that they’ll be allowed to bring a chainsaw into the cabin of an airplane?” but that you know that person who got it taken from them is probably out there telling people “don’t fly XYZ air, you know they don’t even let you bring your chainsaw to your seat with you! How ridiculous is that?”