FL Cavern instructor

[ucfdiver]

To those folks who suggest Jim Wyatt, I have a concern based upon his website. "An improper attitude may constitute grounds for denying certification, regardless of proficency." I've never seen an instructor post anything like that and it strikes me the wrong way. If I am a proficient, safe, diver and the instructor arbitrarily decides he doesn't like my personality, I'd rather my money not go into the toilet. He may be a great instructor, but based upon that, he's not for me.

I'm hesitant to speak for Jim, but most all instructors reserve this right. Basically they're saying if you're someone who continually shows unsafe behavior or thinking, they reserve the right to fail you. Those who don't say it on their website should/will say it in person.

Careful bashing PADI and not other agencies, TDI has been issuing cave instructor ratings too fast for my taste in recent times as well.

I would add these to your list to talk to-

Dan Patterson
Heather Armstrong

If you're looking to polish fundamental skills before taking cavern,
Doug Mudry
Mark Messersmith
Meredith Tanguay

 

[Doppler]

To those folks who suggest Jim Wyatt, I have a concern based upon his website. "An improper attitude may constitute grounds for denying certification, regardless of proficency."

Odd that you mention that point because in writing that, Jim speaks also for Steve, Richard, Paul, Dan, Heather, Edd at Cave Adventurers, and possibly for every cave instructor I know including me. He may not have worded it diplomatically, but his point is a valid one.

Attitude is top of the list of factors that contribute to cave incidents and fatalities... if you want to learn cavern to put a notch on your belt, all the best. If you wanna learn how to dive in an overhead environment safely you will find the first step is to understand the role of attitude in keeping things on the rails.

And, as with any technical program from a technical agency, your cert card is not bought and its cost is not part of the fees you pay your instructor. You have to earn it... there are no guarantees.

 

[karstdvr]

Odd that you mention that point because in writing that, Jim speaks also for Steve, Richard, Paul, Dan, Heather, Edd at Cave Adventurers, and possibly for every cave instructor I know including me. He may not have worded it diplomatically, but his point is a valid one.

Attitude is top of the list of factors that contribute to cave incidents and fatalities... if you want to learn cavern to put a notch on your belt, all the best. If you wanna learn how to dive in an overhead environment safely you will find the first step is to understand the role of attitude in keeping things on the rails.

And, as with any technical program from a technical agency, your cert card is not bought and its cost is not part of the fees you pay your instructor. You have to earn it... there are no guarantees.

I have to second what Steve is saying,and add that cave diving is more than physical,it requires a mental aptitude and survival skill. If you don't have the correct attitude,then being in the cave system is not just risking your life,but your buddy. Unfortunately,instructors all too often see the expectation that I paid my money,so I should get a card at the end of the weekend,which isn't the attitude that will facilitate learning.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

As many have alluded to. Attitude, despite your feelings towards it are more important in regards to evaluating your proficiency than you may want to give credit towards.

Similarly, college professors don't give a rat's ass in regards to your feelings either. You will be graded on more than the right answer. You will need to demonstrate sound reasoning and complex problem solving.

You don't get to set the parameters.

 

[scubaskipper]

Bill Oestreich, up in Crystal River, would be worth checking out. You can contact him through bird@birdsunderwater.com

 

[B Lo]

Since you mention college professors, as a college professor, I would like to point out a glaring inconsistency in your post. I agree that college professors don't generally care for your feelings (when tallying grades). As such, we grade in as objective a manner as possible. Contrast that with something absolutely subjective. One's attitude is utterly subjective. As someone shopping for an instructor in the United States, a country valuing capitalism, I absolutely do get to set the parameters insofar as what kicks an instructor out of the running. It's a two way street and any instructor who thinks he's king of his own little domain is on a power trip that I want nothing to do with. I don't do that to my students. I would never fail someone who is objectively capable simply because I don't like his or her attitude. That's ludicrous and I would imagine there would be repercussions to be had should I ever be inclined to do something so ballsy. Again, if I am a safe and proficient diver, having mastered all required skills, I should be certified. If I don't like the instructor's attitude, perhaps I should initiate a chargeback if I paid by credit card? People can often dish much more than they can take. I've never cared for bullies.

As many have alluded to. Attitude, despite your feelings towards it are more important in regards to evaluating your proficiency than you may want to give credit towards.

Similarly, college professors don't give a rat's ass in regards to your feelings either. You will be graded on more than the right answer. You will need to demonstrate sound reasoning and complex problem solving.

You don't get to set the parameters.

I have not and will not suggest that someone ought to be certified simply due to having paid for the course. That sounds like a classic straw-man argument. What I have suggested and what I continue to suggest is that if one is a safe and proficient diver, having mastered all required skills, he or she ought to be certified whether or not the instructor likes him or her. If I don't like the instructor, I don't arbitrarily and unilaterally have the right to deny him or her payment for the class. What's fair is fair.

I have to second what Steve is saying,and add that cave diving is more than physical,it requires a mental aptitude and survival skill. If you don't have the correct attitude,then being in the cave system is not just risking your life,but your buddy. Unfortunately,instructors all too often see the expectation that I paid my money,so I should get a card at the end of the weekend,which isn't the attitude that will facilitate learning.

That makes perfect sense. I agree that if someone is behaving in an objectively unsafe manner that he or she shouldn't get a pass simply due to having paid for the class. I have no issue whatsoever with what you've written and, in fact, agree wholeheartedly with it. Thank you.

I'm hesitant to speak for Jim, but most all instructors reserve this right. Basically they're saying if you're someone who continually shows unsafe behavior or thinking, they reserve the right to fail you. Those who don't say it on their website should/will say it in person.

Careful bashing PADI and not other agencies, TDI has been issuing cave instructor ratings too fast for my taste in recent times as well.

I would add these to your list to talk to-

Dan Patterson
Heather Armstrong

If you're looking to polish fundamental skills before taking cavern,
Doug Mudry
Mark Messersmith
Meredith Tanguay

 

[victorzamora]

Since you mention college professors, as a college professor, I would like to point out a glaring inconsistency in your post. I agree that college professors don't generally care for your feelings (when tallying grades). As such, we grade in as objective a manner as possible. Contrast that with something absolutely subjective. One's attitude is utterly subjective. As someone shopping for an instructor in the United States, a country valuing capitalism, I absolutely do get to set the parameters insofar as what kicks an instructor out of the running. It's a two way street and any instructor who thinks he's king of his own little domain is on a power trip that I want nothing to do with. I don't do that to my students. I would never fail someone who is objectively capable simply because I don't like his or her attitude. That's ludicrous and I would imagine there would be repercussions to be had should I ever be inclined to do something so ballsy. Again, if I am a safe and proficient diver, having mastered all required skills, I should be certified. If I don't like the instructor's attitude, perhaps I should initiate a chargeback if I paid by credit card? People can often dish much more than they can take. I've never cared for bullies.

This is rarely a power trip by the instructor. However, it's something common amongst any GOOD technical-level instructors....something a rec-only diver hasn't come across. The second part I bolded above, "safe and proficient" is based largely on mental attitude and aptitude, whether you think so or not. Being able to parrot a few basic skills doesn't make you a safe diver, the appropriate attitude and mindest, coupled with the physical skills, are what determine how safe you are. If your mindset/attitude are such that an instructor believes you'll begin breaking standards, or you won't follow proper protocol, or you are going to abuse the certification in some way....they absolutely have the right to fail you. It's VERY uncommon, but it happens.

Like it or not, being a safe and proficient diver is much more about your brain than your body....especially at the technical level.

 

[LiteHedded]

you sound like a real headache.

good luck with your class.

 

[B Lo]

The feeling is very mutual. I want to dive with you about as much as you want to dive with me. [Sarcasm] Thank you for your productive and informative contribution. [/Sarcasm] Mods, can we shut down this thread? It's been hijacked and taken far off topic. Thanks!

you sound like a real headache.

good luck with your class.

I agree that if it appears that one will be breaking standards or neglecting to follow protocol, he or she shouldn't be certified. But there's a world of difference between that and arbitrarily deciding not to certify someone because you don't care for his or her personality. I have never had an instructor complain about my attitude and have done training with the same instructors again and again. That said, they didn't have anything lodged in their behinds obligating me to worship them or act subservient to their egos.

This is rarely a power trip by the instructor. However, it's something common amongst any GOOD technical-level instructors....something a rec-only diver hasn't come across. The second part I bolded above, "safe and proficient" is based largely on mental attitude and aptitude, whether you think so or not. Being able to parrot a few basic skills doesn't make you a safe diver, the appropriate attitude and mindest, coupled with the physical skills, are what determine how safe you are. If your mindset/attitude are such that an instructor believes you'll begin breaking standards, or you won't follow proper protocol, or you are going to abuse the certification in some way....they absolutely have the right to fail you. It's VERY uncommon, but it happens.

Like it or not, being a safe and proficient diver is much more about your brain than your body....especially at the technical level.

 

[PfcAJ]

Man, you really sound like you've got it ALL figured out.

If there is one ego that needs to be checked at the door, its yours.