FIRST TECH Course

[rexman24]

Just one thing, confined water will have a definition by certifying agency - it's not always a pool.

An example of a definition:

"Confined water is a general term that refers to either a swimming pool or confined open water.
Confined open water is an open water site that offers swimming pool-like conditions with respect to clarity, calmness and depth. It has both shallow water and water sufficiently deep to allow student divers to meet all skill performance requirements.
Evaluate confined open water conditions carefully before each dive because a site may qualify as “pool-like” on a given day under certain conditions, but not qualify under others.
When confined water logistics aren’t ideal and the depth is too shallow to conduct all skills, introduce skills requiring water too deep in which to stand, in sequence, in shallow water. Then, when you have access to confined water deep enough to meet skill performance requirements, repeat the deep-water skills, in sequence, before the associated open water dive."

Here in Cozumel we commonly do confined water dives in the ocean but follow those standards.

I went by an online definition but I will see if I can find one from RAID.

 

[ChuckP]

I went by an online definition but I will see if I can find one from RAID.

That is PADI's definition from the instructor manual. It makes perectly good sense, not all dive centers have access to a pool. Somewhere else in the instructor manual it talks about instructors using good judgement to make good decisions.

That is just the simple explanation for the one small part of the issues you had - you had others that I have no answer for!!!!

 

[rexman24]

I went by an online definition but I will see if I can find one from RAID.

My course materials state confined water or pool. It also references that the RAID General Diving Standards can be downloaded from My Documents. Oddly, I don't see them there.
I do not see a way to search for a definition of the term on the RAID website.
Either way I think Confined Water should mean something different than the Open Water we always dive in, just with calm conditions at that moment. Conditions can change extremely quickly in the time you are under for a dive.
IMHO.

 

[rexman24]

That is PADI's definition from the instructor manual. It makes perectly good sense, not all dive centers have access to a pool. Somewhere else in the instructor manual it talks about instructors using good judgement to make good decisions.

That is just the simple explanation for the one small part of the issues you had - you had others that I have no answer for!!!!

Ok but I looked at the materials from both agencies and decided, for me, RAIDs training materials were a better fit. So PADIs definition doesn't really apply to my RAID course.

I am PADI OW and AOW.

 

[rexman24]

Ok but I looked at the materials from both agencies and decided, for me, RAIDs training materials were a better fit. So PADIs definition doesn't really apply to my RAID course.

I am PADI OW and AOW.

I found the RAID General Diving Standards in my documents listed as RGDS-
They do define Closed Water as a general term that refers to either a pool or any body of water that provides pool like conditions with reference to depth, clarity, water movement, etc.

It's pretty vague BUT why specify a CW dive for added safety and confidence for the trainee on the first dive and then go do it at the same spot you do all the other dives? Also I rarely see pool like conditions in the ocean. Shallow water usually involves some combination of waves, viz limits, currents, watercraft, and as I said before in the time it takes to do a dive conditions can be vasy different than when you started.

 

[ChuckP]

Not everyone has access to or owns a pool - it is that simple. Not everyday is an ocean site acceptable and yes conditions can change - it is up to the instructor to make good sound decisions based on experience in that area/site. There are times here when the conditions change or are not good - we come back tomorrow or go to a different place.

That is the standards period.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

This is why I think all agencies should publish their standards and procedures. At lease the students have a way to know if they actually get what they paid for.

RAID does publish the standards. As a matter of fact, every course you take has an Open Water and Confined Water (if needed) manual that lists every skill you are supposed to do and what dives they occur during.

I remember your shop, we really like Amed. I will be in touch if we are coming back! Thanks again.

Of course you liked Amed, you had someone who could direct you to the live music haha

As for the course, once your instructor checked off the skills online, you then needed to check them off for him to be able to certify you. Never check a box for a skill you didn't actually do. This is how QC is handled. As the instructor, I say you did these skills. Then as the student you have to confirm. If there is a discrepancy, a conversation needs to take place around a skill or skills being missed. There are instances where a skill is done but the student doesn't realize they did it. Obviously this is not the case here but it has happened before.

In order to be completely transparent, I missed a skill on a course for a student ONCE. The student questioned me when they saw it listed and I admitted I had forgotten it. We hopped back in the water, did the skill and all was good. Even the best of us make mistakes from time to time.

Having said that, skipping the skills you listed is just lazy and trying to rush through a course. I am sorry you had this experience and please know it is not representative of RAID as a whole.

 

[Hppyfam]

I love RAID's system for things like this, but it sounds like you may have just mass clicked through the skills.. The standards for every dive are listed and must be checked off by the student AND the instructor. If you haven't already signed off on them, than I would hold off, and relay that to RAID QA. If you just clicked through and signed off as having done them... well... I would read things before just signing off. I tell my students please triple check you understand as you sign off and if you don't remember/ don't think we did something in the list, text me. The right bubble in this picture is for instructor sign off, left is student sign off.

 

[rexman24]

Hi. Just to keep the information flowing, I got no satisfactory answers from the owner of the dive shop in question. So, I have escalated it to RAID. I emailed all relevant data and the texted and emailed communications between myself and the instructor and shop owner to the 3 senior leaders at RAID that Jim provided to me here. I heard back from Steve within a hour. He said he was sorry this had been my experience and PJ would look everything over and contact me once he returns from vacation on September 2. So that's what I have now and will keep this thread updated.

 

[rexman24]

I wanted to follow up.
Based on information mostly gained here I contacted RAID and provided all the information. As well as my text conversations with the instructor and the dive shop owner. This was Steve, Lewis and PJ all high level management or VPs there. I had high hopes based on conversations that they would see the people that represent them locally here had not acted in a professional manner, provided a complete training or delivered any level of customer service. I've spent hours and hours on this.

What I got, several months later, only when I asked, from PJ(Marketing)was:

We have been in contact with the instructor and action has been taken.

I wrote back that I found this inadequate for incomplete training, disgusting treatment from a customer service viewpoint and being treated as a stupid, inferior, and ininformed diver by the instructor and his manager. I also said in the interest of transparency I felt they should let me know what the action taken was.

This time i was answered by Steve(VP):

He said since I checked off the training a few months earlier there was nothing they could do. That action was taken, but they couldn't share it due to privacy concerns. Further that they considered the matter closed.

I wrote back saying that I'm getting 2 responses, neither of which was adequate. That I have worked in Customer service most of my life and would never let a customer leave with this type of experience. That the response was way to abrupt and did not really provide any answers. As far as the time frame-you don't know what you don't know when you first complete a training. It was only after doing tech dives some time later and trying to arrange more dives with my instructor had he become more nasty and telling me I was cheap, asking to do things that were unsafe( doing more time after clearing deco under the boat-it isn't unsafe) and that I wasn't thinking correctly-I realized how bad my training had been and things that had been missed.

I've had no other response. My issue was not with RAID but with the instructor and the shop manager. After these responses, RAID has failed me as well.

Now, after days of my time, I'm over all of this.
I have moved on and I'm training on Doubles. I'm doing TDI Decompression Procedures with a fantastic instructor. I find the TDI materials are much more thorough and in depth. He's Gabriel Rioux at Atmosphere resort in Dauin, PH. He is patient, answers all my questions and is working to make up the things that were left out in my RAID course. Atmospheres shop is fantastic and the gear is new and top level. Thank God after all that mess I found a competent and understanding professional.

Happy diving everyone!

and thank you to everyone who tried to help and gave helpful information and advice.