FIRST TECH Course

[jborg]

I may go to The States one day, is Puget Sound the farthest I can be from Florida, or should I try Alaska

Hawaii, my dude. 7500 km from Florida.

 

[RAID MARKETING]

That was me, Steve, appreciate the offer but since he is certified there wouldn't be any cert costs, so that wouldn't be necessary. He has found a new instructor anyway so it's a moot point in this case.

I have sent a password reset email for your @Doppler username, maybe that will reactivate the account if you need it.

Those 2 are a bit of a grey area, since they are not part of the course, but pre requisites (ie you are supposed to do them BEFORE you start with the actual course). That is probably why they aren't in the QA sign-off, since those come from a list of skills to be done during the dives (the sign-off is broken down into Confined Water and Open Water sign offs). Steve, it might be worth looking at adding them to the CW sign off list moving forward if that doesn't get too complicated for the system?

Thanks, Brendon. As you know, we recently rearranged our IT department and engaged a European consulting firm to rebuild our B2B site and move the B2C site onto a different platform. Part of that is to make the QA System more robust. I'm working with the Training Advisory Group to put a nice to have, must have, not worth the effort list of new features. ANY INPUT FROM YOU IS WELCOME, MATE


Thanks for sending the new password.

 

[RAID MARKETING]

Hey Steve, a few years ago I was looking for a ccr class and I was also looking on the RAID website too, because a buddy of mine is a big fan of RAID. There was no 'instructor search' or 'class search' on the website then and today there still isn't any search function or filter for this.
AFAIK every other agency lets you find a class and instructor their website.
You should really add that. RAID instructors and RAID are definitely losing business because of this...

Hey there... a few years ago we were owned by a US company and they had a policy several of us (consultants and IT/Examiners) didn't necessarily agree with those policies, so we bought the company!

LOL.

The B2C website was hacked last week and I just noticed that the search functions are not working... I'll let Gianmi know we have a problem. HOWEVER, no excuses. Your suggestions are appreciated, and the shop search and instructor search ARE part of the site... when it's not been hacked. Apologies.

 

[berndo]

Your suggestions are appreciated, and the shop search and instructor search ARE part of the site... when it's not been hacked.

There is and was an instructor search and an store search but you can't search by class. When you wanna find a ccr/tec x or whatever class you have to search for shops in given country, than click on each shop's webiste to figure out if they offer the class you're looking for. I don't know when you got hacked, it was like this even a few years ago.
Ideally you want to be able to filter by class xyz and to get a list with instructors who offer a specific class.
Just saying, I'd be good and much easier for potential customers if you had a search function like TDI or GUE has it.

 

[RAID MARKETING]

I appreciate that you are participating in the discussion, and your post gives some context and explains why no compensation was given. However, since you are here, I would like to suggest that the QA form should not be used against the student. I can think of many scenarios (human factors) leading students to check off something that wasn't done, whether it's intentional or not - thinking it's not a big deal, peer pressure, not wanting to get the instructor in trouble, just wanting to get through it, not remembering/misunderstanding - so in my opinion it should only be a first line of defense against blatant violations. Saying "You checked the boxes in the form so now you can no longer make a complaint about things missed" doesn't make a lot of sense with that in mind. I do understand it puts you in a tough position and that it's one persons word against another. But I would like to see an agency err on the side of believing the student rather than mistrusting them, and offering to at least cover what was missed (or at least missed by the student) in a follow up class. I think this is the lesser evil, and I can't really see people taking advantage of getting the chance to repeat skills from a class they paid for. Just my two cents...

You make some good points. Our QA System is far from perfect, and you've hit on a couple of points where it's vulnerable. We are in the long process of working to make it better. However, right now, within the industry, I believe it's unique in polling 100 percent of students. I could be wrong.

That said, probably the biggest pratfall is that in the case of a hearsay argument, the classic three sides to every story (his, hers, and the truth), it has drawbacks... Not going to go into the specifics of this case because that would be unfair and inappropriate. But here's a scenario that underscores a serious weak point.

Diver A completes a program and signs off that she's happy. Then a few months later, files a complaint against the shop or the instructor or both because she finds out that the shop down the street sells the same course for less money or she's forgotten half of what she learned and now thinks her course was crap. She's mad because the original shop owner tells her... no dice on a refund.

Her complaint lands in PJ's inbox. HIS PRIME MANDATE is to make sure there have been no violation of standards and there's not safety threat. He follows the QA process, evaluates the circumstances (part of which is looking at the audit trail, quizzes, exam, course signoff, etc., and decides the suspect case is a violation of neither, but the circumstances DO merit adding a note about fair business practices to the member files (dive centre and instructor). THIS ACTION, THIS WRIST-SLAP IS NOT MADE PUBLIC... as mentioned earlier in this thread. That done, PJ hands the dispute off to me as a potential PR issue.

I have a choice to make... sometimes I play bad cop. For example, I suspended one of our instructors this morning and recommended full explosion to the QA team. But usually I play good cop. In the hypothetical case above my choices would be limited. There's no refund I can offer. As an agency, we sell course credits to the Regional Office and they in turn sell that credit to the dive centre.

I can, and sometimes do, speak to the RRO and ask them to ask the dive centre to be 'more gracious in the future.' VERY, VERY occasionally, I contact the dive centre directly to get their side of the story, and have been know to explain the value of customer service to them.

That about sums it up. When I worked at SDI/TDI headquarters, poor Sean Harrison dealt with each case personally. I think that as his and Brian's company has grown, their dispute system involves a few more people than ours... they are bigger than us... for now! (LOL). But they have exactly the same issues... only more of them. (Thinks... maybe I ask Sean at DEMA what they're doing these days.)

Anyhow, sorry to prattle on. I realise I didn't clarify anything for you. But I do appreciate your interest and thoughts.

Dive Safe.

 

[steinbil]

However, right now, within the industry, I believe it's unique in polling 100 percent of students. I could be wrong.

I'm glad you are polling 100% of students. However, I don't think it's unique. As far as I know, GUE also polls 100% of students. And I know I was polled after my PADI OWD class (though I can't say for certain that it's true for all students).

Diver A completes a program and signs off that she's happy. Then a few months later, files a complaint against the shop or the instructor or both because she finds out that the shop down the street sells the same course for less money or she's forgotten half of what she learned and now thinks her course was crap. She's mad because the original shop owner tells her... no dice on a refund.

Fair point. I see how refunds could be taken advantage of, and I understand that the division of economy between dive shops and the agency also makes it more tricky. I still think in cases where standards were broken the dive shop should be mandated to offer some sort of refund or compensation. I understand it's hard to determine whether standards were broken in this case.

I have a choice to make... sometimes I play bad cop. For example, I suspended one of our instructors this morning and recommended full explosion to the QA team. But usually I play good cop. In the hypothetical case above my choices would be limited. There's no refund I can offer. As an agency, we sell course credits to the Regional Office and they in turn sell that credit to the dive centre.

I'm glad to hear that you take violations seriously and discipline staff when called for. That's more than some agencies do, and it is what I expected of RAID. I think my major strife is this: If a student doesn't feel like all skills were completed to satisfaction, for whatever reason, there should be a path to completion for the student. With GUE I know personally that students are offered to retake classes if necessary and possible (to fill an empty spot in a class for example), and that if they fail a class they will get clear instructions on how to practice and retest skills needed to pass. @RainPilot
offering the OP to retake the class is a great example of instructors taking this responsibility upon themselves (and I applaud that!), but maybe there should be a system in place from the agency to encourage/support this and compensate the instructors for their time/effort.

Anyhow, sorry to prattle on. I realise I didn't clarify anything for you. But I do appreciate your interest and thoughts.

Dive Safe.

You did clarify a bit, and I appreciate the effort to communicate with the community. It seems in this case the problem was more with the instructor and not necessarily the agency, and I hope that it will be handled properly. It does seem like the OP could have been met with more understanding, but the offer from
@RainPilot I think would have been the optimal solution. Anyways, thanks for responding to my rambling criticism.

 

[rexman24]

I'm glad you are polling 100% of students. However, I don't think it's unique. As far as I know, GUE also polls 100% of students. And I know I was polled after my PADI OWD class (though I can't say for certain that it's true for all students).


Fair point. I see how refunds could be taken advantage of, and I understand that the division of economy between dive shops and the agency also makes it more tricky. I still think in cases where standards were broken the dive shop should be mandated to offer some sort of refund or compensation. I understand it's hard to determine whether standards were broken in this case.


I'm glad to hear that you take violations seriously and discipline staff when called for. That's more than some agencies do, and it is what I expected of RAID. I think my major strife is this: If a student doesn't feel like all skills were completed to satisfaction, for whatever reason, there should be a path to completion for the student. With GUE I know personally that students are offered to retake classes if necessary and possible (to fill an empty spot in a class for example), and that if they fail a class they will get clear instructions on how to practice and retest skills needed to pass. @RainPilot
offering the OP to retake the class is a great example of instructors taking this responsibility upon themselves (and I applaud that!), but maybe there should be a system in place from the agency to encourage/support this and compensate the instructors for their time/effort.


You did clarify a bit, and I appreciate the effort to communicate with the community. It seems in this case the problem was more with the instructor and not necessarily the agency, and I hope that it will be handled properly. It does seem like the OP could have been met with more understanding, but the offer from
@RainPilot I think would have been the optimal solution. Anyways, thanks for responding to my rambling criticism.

I would like to clarify, from my end, that this had nothing to do with cost of the course, finding it for less later and seeking compensation, or any kind of refund or monetary compensation. I have never asked, wanted or expected that in any way.

You are correct, the issue was with the instructor and dive shop, the skills that were omitted from my course and making the organization aware of really poor customer service delivered.

To my mind it could have been resolved witb a simple offer from the organization to do the parts that were missed on them and a commitment to work on the customer service issue with the instructor/shop.

I find it ironic that Rainpilot, who has no responsibility here, offered to repeat the class for me for free. Further that RAID offered to reimburse him if he did, but they feel it's better to leave a customer with a bad experience than to actually step up and offer the same thing or just to make up the omitted skills themselves and resolve the entire situation.

 

[RainPilot]

Rainpilot, who has no responsibility here

Some clarification of my position:

I had an (absolutely terrible) Officer Commanding once upon a time, who only ever taught me one useful thing, that was "if you see the problem, you own the problem" meaning that it is not up to Someone™ to fix an issue, it is up to you.

I am not employed by RAID in any way, I am not authorised to speak for them in the corporate sense, I have no corporate knowledge outside of that released to all instructors and Instructor Trainers. I do teach for some other agencies (in my signature) mostly for practical reasons. However, I am a passionate advocate for RAID (even with their failings) as I really do believe it comes the closest to avoiding the issues that plague most mainstream dive agencies (subject of other posts on the board and elsewhere)

I do know, and am friendly with, most of the command structure and know their commitment to being an agency for the diver AND the instructor, vs for the instructor only as most others are. That being said:

Further that RAID offered to reimburse him if he did, but they feel it's better to leave a customer with a bad experience than to actually step up and offer the same thing

RAID didn't offer to reimburse me, to be clear. What they offered was a free registration credit for me so that, if I re-certified you, I would not pay for that. RAID has done away with instructor yearly renewals (as long as you do 5 certs a year) as well as dive centre fees (same req) which is conventionally a very large part of agency planned revenue. This was done to help out the industry pros who were absolutely hammered by Covid but has become permanent.

RAID receives one piece of revenue from a certification, namely the cert fees, which vary depending on the source. If you buy direct, it is around 100 USD (vs 140 or so for PADI, TDI etc), if you go through me or any other centre then we get those credits significantly discounted (allows us to increase our revenue with the difference).

In my case, I pay around 60 USD for a cert credit. Some of that goes toward the RRO (RAID Regional Office) and the rest to RAID itself. I am not privy to the split, but I imagine that RAID itself gets around 30-40 USD per cert. So, the BEST they could do financially for you that wouldn't lose them money would be a 30 USD refund, the process of getting that to you in a way that made sense would probably cost more than that and tbh if it were me, a 30 USD refund for a "botched" course would insult me more than anything.

So what else could they do? Well, they could get your course "completed". That would involve getting another RAID tech instructor, in your area, to donate their time and income to fixing the problems created by your original instructor (please note, for the purpose of this post, I am taking your incident at face value without checking into the other side of the story, giving you all the benefit of the doubt).

I charge around 250 USD a day for mentoring/open ended/specialist training which is what this would fall under for me. That is fairly standard at the upper levels of dive instruction. I am fortunate in that I do not make my primary living from civilian dive instruction, so I can afford to take a weekend, have you stay at my place and go get you squared away for free, without it impacting my ability to feed my family.

I can promise you that for most full time dive pros that is NOT the case. Most of them work heavily on commission which encourages them to do the courses in the minimum time allowed, which is another reason that a full day of swim tests and other pre-course work is easy for them to mentally justify skipping, another reason why I am advocating for those to be added to the sign-off list.

So, which instructor, in your area, does RAID ask to work with you, for free, without going into all the details of what happened in order to maintain confidentiality standards etc? It's a tough one.

The alternative would be to offer you a free credit for your next course, kinda like the airlines do when they mess up your life and then offer you a free flight or bag or whatever, I have a drawer full of those from airlines that I will never fly with again due to their screwups so thats always annoyed me - "we messed up, so here's a voucher to come spend more money and time with us"

Unfortunately, when you signed off on skills that weren't done, you effectively tied their hands with further action toward the instructor. I am NOT victim blaming here, you aren't the first and won't be the last. I can guarantee that PJ and the rest will be watching this instructor VERY closely moving forward, but that's really all they can do from their end in this case. I can also guarantee that the instructor will be much more vigilant with skill performance as well, sadly none of that helps you in this case.

As far as their attitude and personality? Well, if being an a-hole was a disqualifier for being an instructor, the dive and aviation sectors would be way shorter on instructors, me included. One can only hope that someone will mentor them, or that this incident will be a wakeup call. that or their shop loses business and they are forced to shape up or ship out.

Sorry for the wall of text, everyone, I am up to the gills on painkillers from my recent surgery so if you'd be kind enough to blame it on that, I'd be eternally grateful.

 

[rexman24]

Some clarification of my position:

I had an (absolutely terrible) Officer Commanding once upon a time, who only ever taught me one useful thing, that was "if you see the problem, you own the problem" meaning that it is not up to Someone™ to fix an issue, it is up to you.

I am not employed by RAID in any way, I am not authorised to speak for them in the corporate sense, I have no corporate knowledge outside of that released to all instructors and Instructor Trainers. I do teach for some other agencies (in my signature) mostly for practical reasons. However, I am a passionate advocate for RAID (even with their failings) as I really do believe it comes the closest to avoiding the issues that plague most mainstream dive agencies (subject of other posts on the board and elsewhere)

I do know, and am friendly with, most of the command structure and know their commitment to being an agency for the diver AND the instructor, vs for the instructor only as most others are. That being said:

RAID didn't offer to reimburse me, to be clear. What they offered was a free registration credit for me so that, if I re-certified you, I would not pay for that. RAID has done away with instructor yearly renewals (as long as you do 5 certs a year) as well as dive centre fees (same req) which is conventionally a very large part of agency planned revenue. This was done to help out the industry pros who were absolutely hammered by Covid but has become permanent.

RAID receives one piece of revenue from a certification, namely the cert fees, which vary depending on the source. If you buy direct, it is around 100 USD (vs 140 or so for PADI, TDI etc), if you go through me or any other centre then we get those credits significantly discounted (allows us to increase our revenue with the difference).

In my case, I pay around 60 USD for a cert credit. Some of that goes toward the RRO (RAID Regional Office) and the rest to RAID itself. I am not privy to the split, but I imagine that RAID itself gets around 30-40 USD per cert. So, the BEST they could do financially for you that wouldn't lose them money would be a 30 USD refund, the process of getting that to you in a way that made sense would probably cost more than that and tbh if it were me, a 30 USD refund for a "botched" course would insult me more than anything.

So what else could they do? Well, they could get your course "completed". That would involve getting another RAID tech instructor, in your area, to donate their time and income to fixing the problems created by your original instructor (please note, for the purpose of this post, I am taking your incident at face value without checking into the other side of the story, giving you all the benefit of the doubt).

I charge around 250 USD a day for mentoring/open ended/specialist training which is what this would fall under for me. That is fairly standard at the upper levels of dive instruction. I am fortunate in that I do not make my primary living from civilian dive instruction, so I can afford to take a weekend, have you stay at my place and go get you squared away for free, without it impacting my ability to feed my family.

I can promise you that for most full time dive pros that is NOT the case. Most of them work heavily on commission which encourages them to do the courses in the minimum time allowed, which is another reason that a full day of swim tests and other pre-course work is easy for them to mentally justify skipping, another reason why I am advocating for those to be added to the sign-off list.

So, which instructor, in your area, does RAID ask to work with you, for free, without going into all the details of what happened in order to maintain confidentiality standards etc? It's a tough one.

The alternative would be to offer you a free credit for your next course, kinda like the airlines do when they mess up your life and then offer you a free flight or bag or whatever, I have a drawer full of those from airlines that I will never fly with again due to their screwups so thats always annoyed me - "we messed up, so here's a voucher to come spend more money and time with us"

Unfortunately, when you signed off on skills that weren't done, you effectively tied their hands with further action toward the instructor. I am NOT victim blaming here, you aren't the first and won't be the last. I can guarantee that PJ and the rest will be watching this instructor VERY closely moving forward, but that's really all they can do from their end in this case. I can also guarantee that the instructor will be much more vigilant with skill performance as well, sadly none of that helps you in this case.

As far as their attitude and personality? Well, if being an a-hole was a disqualifier for being an instructor, the dive and aviation sectors would be way shorter on instructors, me included. One can only hope that someone will mentor them, or that this incident will be a wakeup call. that or their shop loses business and they are forced to shape up or ship out.

Sorry for the wall of text, everyone, I am up to the gills on painkillers from my recent surgery so if you'd be kind enough to blame it on that, I'd be eternally grateful.

Thank you for the insights. I don't know how everything works behind the scenes and it appeared to me they offered to compensate you if you redid the course for me. I'm sorry to hear you are needing to be on pain meds and hope you recover quickly. Say hi to Turk for us,he was very helpful when we were there to find which spot the good bands were playing on a particular night and we shared a few beverages and some stories.

 

[RAID MARKETING]

Some clarification of my position:

....

Unfortunately, when you signed off on skills that weren't done, you effectively tied their hands with further action toward the instructor. I am NOT victim blaming here, you aren't the first and won't be the last.
....

THANKS for helping further to clarify our position, Brendon... and thanks for your support over the years.

As mentioned, and as suggested by our Training Advisory Panel, we're working to make it more obvious to students exactly what their role is in the QA process. (Follow the link I posted as a starting point.)

I can guarantee that PJ and the rest will be watching this instructor VERY closely moving forward, but that's really all they can do from their end in this case. I can also guarantee that the instructor will be much more vigilant with skill performance as well, sadly none of that helps you in this case.

I'll cite the privacy thingy again, and that I have to be careful what I say about any member, but I was hoping people would read between the lines when I mentioned that PJ had dealt with the issue, and the results are kept within the QA Group, but I do feel comfortable telling you that PJ did not get to be VP Training for the agency by sitting on his hands and letting thing like this slide... same with the regional office manager.

I am truly sorry that rexman24 feels he got the short-end of the stick. It was never clear to me what he wanted. You've done a far better job than me in explaining that a redo of the course by another instructor would be impractical... and it was pretty obvious that the existing student/instructor chemistry was toxic... likely from the start. Counselling the original instructor to do a Mulligan didn't seem viable or effective.

You and I have been teaching long enough to have enough spidey-sense and experience in this type of episode to hand the student's money back very early in the process and suggest another instructor. Done that a few times, and it would have been the right approach in this case I suspect.