Fire on safari boat Suzana in Egypt (Red Sea Aggressor)

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Based on the NTSB's preliminary statement on the Conception investigation, those belowdecks died of smoke inhalation rather than burns. Anyone know how nasty a lungful of that stuff would be?
As some of you may recall, I'm a consultant to the L.A County Coroner. We discussed that exact thing. Basically, two or three breath of the toxic smoke (and remember, it's likely not just smoke - if plastics are burning too, there's cyanide gas in the mix) can be enough to incapacitate you if not outright kill you.

Also, just for clarity, the NTSB doesn't determine cause of death. The COD of smoke inhalation came from the SB County Coroner, who in this case is also the Sheriff, assisted by medical experts.
 
BUT, there were plugs in the salon and dining room and many people had phones, laptops, and some battery charging in there. So in that location, this discussion is completely relevant. Maybe with all these ideas, it needs to be added that all charging takes place in one area. That has some of these protections you are talking about. But no where else overnight. No where.

That’s the suggestion I’m going to make for my LOB this weekend - no charging in cabins day or night. Charging in the salon area only and only during the day.

All the same, the attorney and I are sleeping on the sun deck with a dry bag of essentials.
 
I just checked my email & received this:

"Greetings from Aggressor Adventures.

We were just notified that there has been a change in the replacement yacht starting with charters from November 16 - Dec 31, 2019. The replacement yacht will be the Scuba Scene. The Aggressor yacht owner feels this yacht's layout is a better option and is more well suited for Aggressor guests. Please find more information by going to:

Home
The charter itinerary will stay the same. The staterooms and layout of the yacht will be comparable to the Red Sea Aggressor and the courses and rental equipment requests will be provided as requested. The chef and some of the staff from the Red Sea Aggressor will also be on board to ensure your trip will be to the Aggressor standards...."

So it looks like I won't be on RSA2 as it'll be going on RSA1 itinerary. I'll be on Scuba Scene.

Has anyone here been on Scuba Scene yacht?

I don't know how old this report is but very glowing for the Scuba Scene.

A week on board a luxury liveabaord in Red Sea
 
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BUT, there were plugs in the salon and dining room and many people had phones, laptops, and some battery charging in there. So in that location, this discussion is completely relevant.

And the broader discussion of flammability of finishes and random things left laying around. Regardless of what was the source of ignition, the spread is the bigger concern. For interiors (at least in North America) there are well published regulations for how fast things can burn. Similarly, aircraft cabin interiors, I'm certain, would also have industry-wide standards. I'm curious if there are standards for boats and how much they are applied internationally?

Charging in the salon area only and only during the day.

I disagree.

My feeling is that the Salon is actually a higher risk location - by far. Day or night - It's not uncommon for it to be empty if everyone is in the water and the crew is busy. It's also where the power-bar octopus tends to develop which itself is a risk, particularly when they are the dollar store specials. Most importantly, the salon is often the primary exit path for everyone in many boat designs and is often filled with things made of materials with high flammability.

Dive deck table, with all other sources of combustion removed, should be low risk 24 hours/day with proper/adequate design. Ideally the tables/charging areas would be located further from the Salon exit than is common right now (or, there would be an alternate Salon exit out the front which many boats do have).

On boats with reasonable accommodation arrangements (i.e. not the Conception) and working (ideally centrally monitored) smoke detectors in the cabins the risk of charging your phone in your cabin while you are there is no greater than charging it on your bedside table at home. You're going to notice just as quickly if things go badly and there's likely only one exit path at home as well... and less ventilation. My feeling is that the current policy many boats have of 'no unsupervised charging in cabins' is more than enough for most higher end boats with two people per cabin. Discouraging large format (camera, scooter) charging inside is also reasonable, but banning laptop and phone charging in a occupied cabin seems knee-jerk and not well supported by the evidence at hand.

In reality, second to outside on the dive deck - in many boat designs the second best place to have a fire (so far as 'guest areas' goes) is probably in one of the cabins. As long as it is detected and alarmed the cabin door will be more than enough to keep it isolated for the few minutes it takes for everyone else to evacuate.

The focus needs to be on data, not emotion. Some better choices may be counter-intuitive and not easily captured by blanket rules/prohibitions. For example, anytime a laptop is plugged in it is technically 'charging' - so long as there is a person with it using it I would declare it as plenty safe whether in a cabin or not. A blanket ban on charging in an area does not capture that. Similarly, on a sprinklered vessel with a central alarm system an unsupervised interior charging location is probably not an exceptional risk (i.e. the robust indoor camera rooms that exist on some SE Asia boats).

The only significant risk areas we have so far that are supported by data are:
- Unsupervised batteries/devices - link to charging currently a reasonable assumption (Conception definitely, RSA1 probably)
- Sources of ignition and sustaining fuel along exit paths; blocked exit paths
These are a bit more specific than 'Batteries on boats = scary & bad'.

On land many fire regulations focus much more on exit paths and containment rather than outright prevention. I would suggest the same approach on boats. We're still talking a very, very, very rare occurrence - no need to go all 'bubble boy' on every aspect of design and procedures. Just enough to ensure survivability in the vast majority of cases should be the the target threshold (and an achievable goal). I would also suggest 100% survivability is not realistic at the price points boats currently sail for....
 
And the broader discussion of flammability of finishes and random things left laying around. Regardless of what was the source of ignition, the spread is the bigger concern. For interiors (at least in North America) there are well published regulations for how fast things can burn. Similarly, aircraft cabin interiors, I'm certain, would also have industry-wide standards. I'm curious if there are standards for boats and how much they are applied internationally?
There are IMO (International Maritime Organization) regulations for SOLAS (Safety of Life at Sea) vessels. Liveaboard dive boats tend not to be. My liveaboard was probably the tightest regulated boat in the world and we wouldn't even have come close to meeting SOLAS, which requires fire rated cabin walls and construction/furnishings for any vessels carrying more tan 12 passengers on an international voyage, that is, from one country to another. My friend Mike Lever's Nautilus Explorer was built to SOLAS standards, as he operated in Canada to the US, as well as the US to Mexico, and he found the regulations to be onerous and too expensive for what folks were willing to pay for liveaboard diving. He may have dropped his Canadian Registry and may be operating in another registry. I don't know the specifics any more.

So yes, standards exist, and loopholes exist as well. Liveaboard dive boats tend to exploit the loopholes, because of their trade.
 
And the broader discussion of flammability of finishes and random things left laying around. Regardless of what was the source of ignition, the spread is the bigger concern. For interiors (at least in North America) there are well published regulations for how fast things can burn. Similarly, aircraft cabin interiors, I'm certain, would also have industry-wide standards. I'm curious if there are standards for boats and how much they are applied internationally?



I disagree.

My feeling is that the Salon is actually a higher risk location - by far. Day or night - It's not uncommon for it to be empty if everyone is in the water and the crew is busy. It's also where the power-bar octopus tends to develop which itself is a risk, particularly when they are the dollar store specials. Most importantly, the salon is often the primary exit path for everyone in many boat designs and is often filled with things made of materials with high flammability.

Dive deck table, with all other sources of combustion removed, should be low risk 24 hours/day with proper/adequate design. Ideally the tables/charging areas would be located further from the Salon exit than is common right now (or, there would be an alternate Salon exit out the front which many boats do have).

On boats with reasonable accommodation arrangements (i.e. not the Conception) and working (ideally centrally monitored) smoke detectors in the cabins the risk of charging your phone in your cabin while you are there is no greater than charging it on your bedside table at home. You're going to notice just as quickly if things go badly and there's likely only one exit path at home as well... and less ventilation. My feeling is that the current policy many boats have of 'no unsupervised charging in cabins' is more than enough for most higher end boats with two people per cabin. Discouraging large format (camera, scooter) charging inside is also reasonable, but banning laptop and phone charging in a occupied cabin seems knee-jerk and not well supported by the evidence at hand.

In reality, second to outside on the dive deck - in many boat designs the second best place to have a fire (so far as 'guest areas' goes) is probably in one of the cabins. As long as it is detected and alarmed the cabin door will be more than enough to keep it isolated for the few minutes it takes for everyone else to evacuate.

The focus needs to be on data, not emotion. Some better choices may be counter-intuitive and not easily captured by blanket rules/prohibitions. For example, anytime a laptop is plugged in it is technically 'charging' - so long as there is a person with it using it I would declare it as plenty safe whether in a cabin or not. A blanket ban on charging in an area does not capture that. Similarly, on a sprinklered vessel with a central alarm system an unsupervised interior charging location is probably not an exceptional risk (i.e. the robust indoor camera rooms that exist on some SE Asia boats).

The only significant risk areas we have so far that are supported by data are:
- Unsupervised batteries/devices - link to charging currently a reasonable assumption (Conception definitely, RSA1 probably)
- Sources of ignition and sustaining fuel along exit paths; blocked exit paths
These are a bit more specific than 'Batteries on boats = scary & bad'.

On land many fire regulations focus much more on exit paths and containment rather than outright prevention. I would suggest the same approach on boats. We're still talking a very, very, very rare occurrence - no need to go all 'bubble boy' on every aspect of design and procedures. Just enough to ensure survivability in the vast majority of cases should be the the target threshold (and an achievable goal). I would also suggest 100% survivability is not realistic at the price points boats currently sail for....

I value your thoughts and suggestions but I’m sticking with my assessment of the crew and the lay out of the boat. I know them both well along with the variety of people we get on the boat. For our situation, one you obviously can’t judge from afar, I’m confident the rules are appropriate mitigation measures, not emotional reactions nor a “bubble boy” approach.

By the way, those two bits somewhat undermined what I found to be an otherwise very thoughtful and well-written post.
 
I value your thoughts and suggestions but I’m sticking with my assessment of the crew and the lay out of the boat. I know them both well along with the variety of people we get on the boat. For our situation, one you obviously can’t judge from afar, I’m confident the rules are appropriate mitigation measures, not emotional reactions nor a “bubble boy” approach.

By the way, those two bits somewhat undermined what I found to be an otherwise very thoughtful and well-written post.

Note that all my comments in this thread are aimed at a generic situation not targeted at your specific scenario.

But I will ask - for your boat:
- are there enough plugs just in the Salon to meet the needs of everyone on the boat?
- are those plugs all on the same circuit? Is one circuit enough to handle all the loads now concentrated in the area?
- what is the condition of the upstream circuit breaker? The panel?
- are those plugs well maintained or heavily worn compared to plugs in other locations?
- Is the Salon an exit path? The only exit path?
- Are the Salon's furnishings fire resistant? More or less than the cabin furnishings?
- Is there enough 'flat surface' space that everyone's gear can be arranged in a safe manner? Without towels and clothes laying around/on top of?

At some point in the past a (presumably) clever person worked out a reasonable distribution of space, receptacles, electrical capacity, etc. for that boat. This would have assumed a normal distribution of humans and their activities around the boat. Are you comfortable that you know enough about the elements that lurk below the surface on that boat to unilaterally override those decisions without further investigation? Are all the other passengers that will be complying with these policies contracted with you for the trip, or are you just another passenger?

(This is not meant to be confrontational, but rather to illustrate why I'm so adamant about data - and peer review - being used in these decisions. It's quite easy to solve one problem by creating another.)

And, perhaps we've found a new revenue stream for boats to make all these safety upgrades: selling deck chair bunks to people who feel unsafe inside the boat.
 
Similarly, aircraft cabin interiors, I'm certain, would also have industry-wide standards
Yes govened by FAA & CAA etc.

You need to subject materials for environmental and burn test

I had to submit granite once, surprisingly it didn't' burn - that test cost $5000 (for the obvious)
 
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