Fins and manoeuvrability

[gkrane]

You mean after you edited it??

All the add-ons are based on known science - various style vortex breakers to reduce drag and direct fluid flow. Ever looked out on the wings of an airplane? They have similar devices added on.
And yes, I have whiskers on my Excellerating FFs - if I was looking for maximum speed, I would install speed pods to reduce drag.



I know it seems foreign to some folks that there is some science that can/does improve fin performance. But we do live in a nation of the scientific/math challenged/deniers.

Oh my.....This is surreal.

 

[TN Traveler]

Oh my.....This is surreal.

No what is surreal is you commenting on the Force Fin Website - their need for a new business manager/purchasing agent, etc. None of that has anything to do with the performance of the fins - perceived or otherwise.
I have no idea why some people just want to bash a product that they never tried when others are trying to explain the reason they use it and/or feel it is superior.

I have decided you are just another INTERNET TROLL - and from here on out, to be ignored!!!!

 

[danvolker]

Oh my.....This is surreal.

Come on Gkrane, I know T Traveler and you are on opposite ends of this discussion, but the reality is...this discussion is NOT about getting divers to buy something due to unsubstantiated claims... This discussion is about getting divers to TRY something--for free, that many may find could radically change their enjoyment of diving.

Even if you hate me and DIR diving....it is hard to argue that my popuarlizing DIR back in the 90's on rec.scuba, did not HELP many divers to find a more enjoyable and safer way to dive, and to choose better technology gear and configure it to dive....at a time when the technology development for scuba gear was going largely in all the wrong directions ( DEMA shows pushing "important" new colors for dive gear....Bigger pockets on BC's... Bigger BC's with Lifts even as high as 100 pounds.....Spare Airs you could fit in a pocket, that would supposedly save your life from a 100 foot dive....etc., etc.).

This was important for me in the 90's....and propulsion is equally important to me now

George Irvine, Bill Mee and I pushed DIR ideas, by offering free DIR demos all over the US, back in the 90's.....We had to PROVE what we were saying, and we did...at least to the numbers of DIR divers ( or DIR'ish diver) that exist today--a big jump from the 100 man WKPP team it began with.

Now I just want to get the chance to PROVE the propulsion gear and techniques...
I'm not quite clear why offering demo's is such a horrible thing???? At the worst, it should be fun....No?

---------- Post added September 28th, 2015 at 12:59 PM ----------

Back to kick shape....and leverage....and muscles used.
Ron Smith's Dol-Fin mono fin, and his new bi-fins, are most efficient using the leverage and muscles and coordination of the Dolphin kick ( obviously there is little choice with the Dol-fin....but his Bi-fins will do any kick from frog, to reverse, to flutter...to Dolphin

So one area to discuss, is maybe we should be looking at how incredibly efficient dolphins are in the water, and then see what our fin makers have been doing wrong....how they could have chosen designs that could work on divers, more like they do on Dolphins. This is using a diver's body, in a way that it becomes far better able to leverage the power potential of the human body, and to create a "lever" to deliver this to a fin ---and doing so with the minimum possible cost to the diver in terms of exertion.

If you flip back and forth between the Ron Smith Freedive Monofin video, and this video I shot of a pod of about 30 Bottlenose dolphins foraging....you can look at the economy of motion and lack of effort the dolphins enjoy....and you can see the dramatic similarities to Ron Smoth's kick shape, leverage, and primary muscle use. When I shoot his next version of his new Bi-Fin ( two fins rather than mono fin) , you will see the same coordination and leverage ideas as primary here...with the advantages of also great frog kicking and reverse kicking.

See the dolphins....average pace of Bottlenose around 6 mph ( this is from a 25 minute video I shot off of Pauls reef, with camera mounted on Gavin Scooter, and me assisting with my fastest long term cruise pace with the DiveR freediving fins...this boosted the Gavin speed to the point I could stay with dolphins that scuba divers are not supposed to be physically capable of staying with....but technology triumphs
[video=youtube;04rfYqs9ZSE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04rfYqs9ZSE&[/video]

This vid is ideally watched in Full screen at at the setting of 1080p60 ( the extra frame rate of 60 keeps the movement from blurring)

 

[gkrane]

I am actually extremley interested in DIR diving nor do I hate you. I didn't feel I suggested anything of the kind. I am actually going to take a fundies class. Please fill me in on your involvement of DIR's inception as I would find that quite interesting. kind. TN Traveler is just so outlandish and condescending it's humorous. I would love to try and demo the fins for free, as this does sound fun.

 

[danvolker]

Please fill me in on your involvement of DIR's inception as I would find that quite interesting. kind. .

George Irvine, as I expect you know, was the head of the WKPP in the 90's, and to end the rampant deaths in deep cave diving going on in North Florida caves, George compiled all the most intelligent dive ideas and gear configurations, and training and skills concepts, into this big compendium that became DIR..and then he mandated it to the letter, for all WKPP divers. George ran this for many years, with a zero death record, with tenso of thousands of man-hours for the 100 man team, doing insanely technical dives.....not to mention the world record pushes he and JJ did that was over 3 miles in to Wakulla, at an av depth of 280 feet deep....George would do a 12 hour deco for this run time of 6 hours at this depth, JJ was more like 16 if memory serves.

I did hundreds of tech dives with George and Bill Mee in the 90's and up to around 2004, when George had to take over his Dad's business....and no longer had the time....As dive buddies, George would task me with pushing DIR to rec.scuba , and to the tech list on aquanaut.....and Bill was tasked to the Cavers list....In the late 90's, the three of us would do many DIR demos all over the us, and many seminars on DIR...George even went to Europe for several DIR demos....In person, he was not offensive....most divers liked him...Onn the internet, in the 90's, this being a time of Flame wars and WWF WRestling theatrics, George was loved by many , and hated by many, just like a Pro Wrestling persona. The persona got him the traction and viral sharing, critical to reach tens of thousands of divers, at zero financial cost.

You can see me in the DIR 3 video, in the middle, with George on my left side as I face you( your right), and Bill on my right side.
With over 23,000 views and and over an hour in length, my claim of tens of thousands should get plenty of creedence, given that Rec.scuba and the tech and cave lists were even larger distribution points.
[video=youtube;TD4K0SzZijI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD4K0SzZijI&[/video]

 

[Freewillow]

I am of french culture and do not understand who is who is this game. Can one forum member/moderator tell me who is a professional or amateur that is "linked" to a finn company. Interesting discussion but hard to find out who has no "financial" interest in the finn/diving industry. Thanks

 

[Charlesl]

Let's compare a $200 Kmart bike, to a $6000 Racing road bike.
Could you say that the Road bike is 10 times better than the Kmart bike? For the people that can "settle" for a Kmart bike, clearly the answer is that the expensive race bike is a ridiculous waste of money--that there Kmart bike does everything a fancy race bike would do for them--for very little money. For the cyclists that care about performance, the Race bike is very worth the money, and some will pay 10K for even more performance. These same cyclists would consider the kmart bikes no better than disgusting junk, that effectively prevents the deluded buyers of them, from ever experiencing what riding a bike should be like. This pretty much sums up my view of fins as well.

Quatros...Jetfins, etc...these are Kmart fins....

There is a large majority of scuba divers that think that scuba divers should swim slowly, and apparently believe that there is no reason to buy fins that can allow efficient high speed travel with huge distance potential...This is against their scuba religion.....The Kmart performance fins -- like the Jetfins and split fins and the rest of the junk fins most scuba divers swear by, will remain their end all, and be all.

As a racing mountain biker, a sub 1k bike should be given to your children or spent on a used road bike or a fixie / beach cruiser for your lady friend.

As a guy who owns a 10k full carbon bike, well 2 of them road and mtb I'll admit the diminishing marginal utility comes in quick after 3-4k just like spending 1-200 on fins.

I don't think the cycling comparison is accurate. I won't pay 500 for fins. 130 for jetfins is enough. If i want to go really fast I'll use my free diving fins.

I'm sure the quality of the product is good, but the cost could be lowered with better sourcing or getting them made over seas.

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[TN Traveler]

As a racing mountain biker, a sub 1k bike should be given to your children or spent on a used road bike or a fixie / beach cruiser for your lady friend.

As a guy who owns a 10k full carbon bike, well 2 of them road and mtb I'll admit the diminishing marginal utility comes in quick after 3-4k just like spending 1-200 on fins.

I don't think the cycling comparison is accurate. I won't pay 500 for fins. 130 for jetfins is enough. If i want to go really fast I'll use my free diving fins.

I'm sure the quality of the product is good, but the cost could be lowered with better sourcing or getting them made over seas.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Please see Posts 83 and 87. The material used is not compatible with mass production. The volume of fins produced is not sufficient to interest any over seas manufacturer. These (Tan Delta material) fins are high quality, made in america, hand made fins - they will never be a mass produced/marketed item - much like your $10K bicycle.

To each his own - I would never pay over $1K for a bicycle - you won't pay $500 for fins. Fair enough!!!

Just to make it perfectly clear - NEITHER Dan nor I have any financial/marketing/management connection with the Force Fins Company. We are just presenting information about what we feel is a superior product.

 

[Charlesl]

Please see Posts 83 and 87. The material used is not compatible with mass production. The volume of fins produced is not sufficient to interest any over seas manufacturer. These (Tan Delta material) fins are high quality, made in america, hand made fins - they will never be a mass produced/marketed item - much like your $10K bicycle.

To each his own - I would never pay over $1K for a bicycle - you won't pay $500 for fins. Fair enough!!!

Just to make it perfectly clear - NEITHER Dan nor I have any financial/marketing/management connection with the Force Fins Company. We are just presenting information about what we feel is a superior product.

Gotcha didn't see the post. Wasn't accusing you of anything. And to be honest, I know my 10k bike is stamped out at a factory for a fraction of the cost. (I own a company that gets everything made over seas, you'd be surprised with what you can get made for limited runs)

I'm sure they are great fins maybe I'd like to try a pair. Although at the current price level just more than I'm willing to spend currently. As a small business I wish them well for sure.

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[gkrane]

Again, Tan Delta is not a material regardless of what Force Fin calls their compound. It is a term used for vibration dampening purposes. You are confused again.

---------- Post added September 28th, 2015 at 02:24 PM ----------

"Exactly" what causes the inability to mass produce these fins with this mystery compound? Sounds very far fetched to me. What exactly is done by hand? Fin strap attachment? I doubt they are hand shaped like a surfboard blank. If there are molds, which I suspect there are, they can be mass produced.