Finally dove with DIR buddies. What a mess!

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Whirling Girl once bubbled...


Though I think that diving DIR is more of a choice rather than a judgment, I wouldn't be honest if I didn't admit that I think it's a better, safer way to dive.

The question is better and safer than what?. IME, there are those doing it as good, as safe and in what is mostly an indistinguishable fashion but they haven't given it a name.

IMO, what the label (DIR or other) does is tell you what to expect in certain regards. Like going to McDonalds, It might not be the best but there are few surprises.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
The question is better and safer than what?. IME, there are those doing it as good, as safe and in what is mostly an indistinguishable fashion but they haven't given it a name.

IMO, what the label (DIR or other) does is tell you what to expect in certain regards. Like going to McDonalds, It might not be the best but there are few surprises.
PADI is like McDonalds. Consistent. Well aimed at the target market. Standards and procedures driven from top down but operations are run locally with ocassional auditing by corporate.

On a more serious note..... something that some DIR advocates seem to be missing is that the safest method is NOT always the best. There are other considerations besides safety. Safety is a very important consideration, but not the only one.

At some level, increases in safety are not worth the additional effort or lack of convenience.

FOOD FIGHT!

Conversely, in some cases, even doing the dive the safest possible way is NOT worth the risk the dive entails.

I won't bother with examples. Any thinking person can come up with his own.
 
Otter once bubbled...

Question: Does the term DOING IT RIGHT connote a certain amount of egotism to the general population? If THEY are DOING IT RIGHT then everyone else is DOING IT WRONG...sounds judgemental to me and hence egotistical.

The connotations associated with DIR, which you've captured nicely above, have probably done more harm to the ideas that GUE is espousing than anything in their curriculum.

However, if you look beyond the name, or simply ignore it, you've got to admit that they DIR system has some nice features.
 
Ya know, those bastards at DiveRite started this whole thing, didn't they? If you don't use their equipment, then you must be using DiveWrong.

Where will it end? :D

Otter once bubbled...
I was getting pretty bumbed about MikeF having to close his shop. Then I read through this thread. It reminded me in High School when someone would yell "food fight"!

Question: Does the term DOING IT RIGHT connote a certain amount of egotism to the general population? If THEY are DOING IT RIGHT then everyone else is DOING IT WRONG...sounds judgemental to me and hence egotistical. And if the term STROKE comes from STROKING ones EGO, then is there really a difference between a DIR diver and a STROKE -- not from a gear or technique perspective, but from a pschological/attitudinal perspective?

Otter

Ok: Well I wanted to throw something at this food fight and all I could come up with was a creme puff! :bonk:
 
Detroit Diver
"Ya know, those bastards at DiveRite started this whole thing..."

You crack me up... thanks to you I have to clean my monitor off.:D I don't think coffee was meant to be absorbed by electronics...

Warning...Hijack attempt forthcoming...
On another issue...
You planning on being down our way for some diving anytime soon?

Best Regards
Don
 
Hijacking con't-

Not for a couple of weeks at least. This weekend I'm out, and next week Brando and Scot are borrowing my doubles when they go to the Tech class in Canada. I will be sure to be in the water soon after they get back, though! I'll be dehydrated by then!

In the meantime, have a few good dives for me.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread....

dcostanza once bubbled...
Detroit Diver
"Ya know, those bastards at DiveRite started this whole thing..."

You crack me up... thanks to you I have to clean my monitor off.:D I don't think coffee was meant to be absorbed by electronics...

Warning...Hijack attempt forthcoming...
On another issue...
You planning on being down our way for some diving anytime soon?

Best Regards
Don
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
The question is better and safer than what?.


Than not diving DIR. Don't kill me for saying that. I think DIR as a holistic approach to every aspect of diving, is better and safer than any other way of diving. (This is only within the recreational, cave and wreck context).

IMO, what the label (DIR or other) does is tell you what to expect in certain regards. Like going to McDonalds, It might not be the best but there are few surprises.

Yikes! That comparison won't make the DIR vegans happy one bit. :) The irony is that surprises are really the last thing you want underwater, and DIR really prepares you for handling surprises.

You're right, DIR does tell you what to expect. Consistency in gear configuration, consistency in the standards expected of DIR divers by themselves and each other, consistency in orientation and approach to the art and skill of diving; all of these allow DIR divers to work together as a team while diving. Because DIR is based on the relationships between divers, then speaking the same language, and sharing the same approach, makes all the sense in the world.

:)

Margaret
 
Whirling Girl once bubbled...


Than not diving DIR. Don't kill me for saying that. I think DIR as a holistic approach to every aspect of diving, is better and safer than any other way of diving. (This is only within the recreational, cave and wreck context).

Margaret [/B]

Not to nit pick, but who has compared it to all other way's of diving? How would one even identify "other ways" since they may not have a name or clear boundries?

The system was worked out in connection with the WKPP and it's certainly worked very well. IMO, that is in no way evidence that another system wouldn't have worked as well.

In my experience good divers who use the DIR label are no better than good divers who don't use any label.

Lots of cave divers in Florida diving Hogarthian rigs who have top notch skills. Unless one has an educated enough eye to spot some really subtle differences you couldn't pick out the DIR folks.

Maybe we need to pick some talanted divers and give a name to what they do so we have something to compare.
 
Apology in advance for the length of this post.
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Not to nit pick, but who has compared it to all other way's of diving? How would one even identify "other ways" since they may not have a name or clear boundries?
Hmmmm. I'm trying to answer your question and it's hard. As far as I'm aware, there's DIR, and there's non-DIR. Those are the only two 'ways', though non-DIR isn't defineable. So I guess we would have to be discussing specific examples of gear and technique in order to set out the reasons why DIR makes more sense in that specific instance. So, non-DIR guy asks 'why do you do that or use this or think that' and DIR guy says 'well, here's the reasons why we do/use/think this stuff and here's how it comes in handy.'

So I'll pick three examples, and forgive me for picking obvious ones, but this is just for illustration:

ISSUE 1: Flutter vs. Frog Kick. In my PADI openwater course, I was taught only to flutter kick, meaning, long slow vertical (up and down) kicks using the large muscles in the thighs and hips. This comes naturally to most people and unless they are taught something different, that's how they are going to kick. But when you're diving in Puget Sound, there is no better way to completely stir up the deep silt that covers much of the bottom than to flutter kick. Flutter kicking drives water downward and upward on every stroke and thus, in certain environments, it leaves a huge cloud behind you. It happens every dang time. (In a wreck, the flutter kick also brings a shower of debris down from the ceiling to mingle nicely with the crap stirred up from the floor, but I digress)

And perhaps there is nothing wrong with this, unless a) there are other divers in the vicinity who you have just silted out, b) you decide to turn around and happen to head back the way you came and end up in your own cloud of silt or c) you have some kind of charlie foxtrot occur in the middle of your dive, the team stops and tries to deal with it, and the silt cloud you created catches up with you and suddenly you're in zero vis.

DIR poses the hypothesis that learning to kick in ways designed not to stir up silt or rain down debris is, well, good.

So, why does frog kicking work?

It uses your fins to propel you forward by pushing water from side to side, not up and down. Combined with horizontal trim, it keeps the water movement off the floor and ceiling entirely.

ISSUE 2: Horizontal Trim vs. Vertical or Semi-Vertical. DIRF teaches you to dive horizontal in the water at nearly all times and not to use your hands to maneuver. Why? Several reasons, not all of which I will attempt to explain, but they include: efficiency of effort, more accurate buoyancy control, much less resistance through the water, more even offgassing of nitrogen in all the compartments of the body during deco stops, and more efficient use of lung/alveoli surface in the exchange of blood gasses during deco stops. (The most important reason, however, is that you look cool. way cool.)

ISSUE 3: Split Fins vs. Jetfins. Here's an equipment issue. Split fins are touted as being easier to kick (meaning flutterkick) and the fins for moving fastest through the water. This might very well be true. However, on most recreational, cave and wreck dives, getting from point a to point b in a straight line and in the shortest amount of time possible is not usually the goal. And if you make diving with horizontal trim and using the DIR kicks described above, you must have traditional fins.

I have done, or attempted, all the DIR kicks in split fins. It's doable with the exception of the back kick, though I admit that my ability to fin backwards still leaves alot to be desired. I have yet to see someone kick backwards successfully in splits. The other kicks, when done using split fins, are a) harder to do and b) not done as cleanly. Why? It's not because split fins suck. It's because frog kicks are smaller, more controlled movements and actually require more resistance against the water, not less, in order to propel you forward or backward or spin you around on a dime. This is also one of the reasons why frog kicking requires alot less effort and is much more efficient than flutter kicking.

Don't believe me? Learn to frog kick (properly!), then dive to a consistent depth, read your gauge, note your psi, and frog kick for, oh, 5-10 minutes. turn around, read your gauge, note your psi, and then head back, this time flutter kicking to your heart's content, for the same amount of time. note your gauge at the end and see if you consumed more air in one direction or the other.

And make sure to do the flutter kick second, because otherwise, you'll be swimming through your own silt on the way back.

So. There are my three examples.

Pick an issue and we'll discuss it, either here or in PM. I may not know the answer but I'll give it a try. Don't get too technical on me, either; I'm still waiting for my PST 104's to arrive so I can start diving doubles and I'm not planning to take Tech 1 for at least a year. Recreational trimix is the only thing I have coming up soon.
The system was worked out in connection with the WKPP and it's certainly worked very well. IMO, that is in no way evidence that another system wouldn't have worked as well.
Right. Sounds good. Name one. Or describe one that is different than DIR but would work out as well.

Also, recall that the WKPP system is dynamic, not static. DIR changes as experience teaches us what works and what doesn't. It's constantly being critiqued and analyzed. And show me another system based on the combined experience of JJ, George Irvine, Andrew G, and the other members of WKPP, SCRET and the other amazingly accomplished DIR dive teams around the world. There aren't any.

Lots of cave divers in Florida diving Hogarthian rigs who have top notch skills. Unless one has an educated enough eye to spot some really subtle differences you couldn't pick out the DIR folks.
I believe you. But those 'subtle differences' would be the basis for a lively discussion. Name one.

Maybe we need to pick some talanted divers and give a name to what they do so we have something to compare.
cool! go find some!

See, the judgment that people perceive from DIR isn't really what they think it is. It has nothing to do with talent or experience or ability. Lots of naturally gifted, very experienced divers do things that the DIR approach would call 'unsafe'. It's generally not because they aren't talented or they are dumb, it's because they don't know any better. But it requires you to have an open mind and set your ego aside so that you can honestly consider the information and decide whether or not it's right.

My next post will be very short, I promise. :)

Margaret
 

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