Finally dove with DIR buddies. What a mess!

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scubatexastony once bubbled...
I didn't know the Beverly Hills gang invented the FROG KICK! Nor did I have a clue that they mastered and defined trim and bouyancy! CHIT....Wassa blade? :wink:
Blow wind up someone else posterior.

tony


I don't know what language you're speaking, but here's a go:

If your referring to GUE, they didn't invent the frog kick. It wasn't suggested that they did. They do, however, show how this kick is far more efficient than any other, most of the time.

As to trim and bouyancy, yes, they have mastered it. And are the only agency that pushes the reasons that this mastery is so critical in diving.

You can have your own wind back now.
 
Nope. You're on your own there.
 
I don't know how long Whirling Girl has been posting. I respect her and many of the other DIR divers on this board.

If one were to read Mike F.'s posts, he preaches the same trim and buoyancy tips that Margaret refers to if her post. He is a cave diver and lives by them. BTW, my Advanced Nitrox instructor will tell you the same thing as he is a cave diver. One does not have to be GUE/DIR to push trim/buoyancy, horizontal trim, and lack of split fins. One just has to swim around in overhead environments for a while and see for themselves why these things work. (I take the instructors word for it working or not, LOL). I will give Margaret credit, she does not refer to Split Fins as "garbage" (I am too genteel on public boards to use the other terms that I read, so substitute "garbage") like many of the DIR crowd.

NSS, IANTD, and other organizations push trim and frog kicks as well. Even in my SSI training for open water, we demonstrate frog kicks in class and explain that they are useful for cruising along the reef slowly without kicking up sand even though most of our OW students will use a flutter kick most of the time. Our normal training area is a pretty silty lake. If the students are kicking up silt by the end of their fourth dive, they will be doing another dive before certification.

I use frog kicks atop wrecks too. I don't like to leave the "strafing trail" that everybody refers to and I like looking at the tool marks in the wood. The more important differences lie elsewhere. This is what Mike F. is referring to by needing an educated eye to spot a DIR diver in a Florida cave.

I apologize if I stepped on anybody's toes accidently with this post. I am trying to keep it as informative as I can, not being a DIR diver myself and it is difficult to compare.
 
NSS, and IANTD are advanced level courses. Other than the rare instructor that knows the difference (like MikeFerrara), and then teaches it, there is NO OW agency that teaches these fundamental skills in any depth to their students.

Your Advanced Nitorx Instructor MUST know these skills to do the cave diving that he does. He KNOWS why they are so important. You are lucky enough to have the benefit of his wisdom. You're right, you don't have to be GUE/DIR to push these skills. It's just that, with the few exceptions, no one does.

In fact, if you take a DIR Fundamentals class, the instructor will tell you that what they are teaching in terms of skills is in the first 4 pages of the PADI OW student manual! It's glossed over so badly that they have made an industry (albeit small) of correcting this oversight (I'm not sure "oversight" is the proper term, as I think it's deliberate).


diverbrian once bubbled...
I don't know how long Whirling Girl has been posting. I respect her and many of the other DIR divers on this board.

If one were to read Mike F.'s posts, he preaches the same trim and buoyancy tips that Margaret refers to if her post. He is a cave diver and lives by them. BTW, my Advanced Nitrox instructor will tell you the same thing as he is a cave diver. One does not have to be GUE/DIR to push trim/buoyancy, horizontal trim, and lack of split fins. One just has to swim around in overhead environments for a while and see for themselves why these things work. (I take the instructors word for it working or not, LOL). I will give Margaret credit, she does not refer to Split Fins as "garbage" (I am too genteel on public boards to use the other terms that I read, so substitute "garbage") like many of the DIR crowd.

NSS, IANTD, and other organizations push trim and frog kicks as well. Even in my SSI training for open water, we demonstrate frog kicks in class and explain that they are useful for cruising along the reef slowly without kicking up sand even though most of our OW students will use a flutter kick most of the time. Our normal training area is a pretty silty lake. If the students are kicking up silt by the end of their fourth dive, they will be doing another dive before certification.

I use frog kicks atop wrecks too. I don't like to leave the "strafing trail" that everybody refers to and I like looking at the tool marks in the wood. The more important differences lie elsewhere. This is what Mike F. is referring to by needing an educated eye to spot a DIR diver in a Florida cave.

I apologize if I stepped on anybody's toes accidently with this post. I am trying to keep it as informative as I can, not being a DIR diver myself and it is difficult to compare.
 
detroit diver once bubbled...
.... there is NO OW agency that teaches these fundamental skills in any depth to their students.

GUE has no entry level OW course either. The DIRF is a great program but not even close to a complete OW course. Therefore, everyone that takes one of GUEs courses, was originally taught by some other agency.

You can start bragging that GUE has improved the dive industrys entry level OW programs when they have implemented a successful entry level OW program.

Until that time, they are only training people who somehow survived OW training from other agencies.
 
Wrong.

Here's what you get when you mix a GUE instructor who cares and knows the difference with a PADI class:

http://scubaguys.com/Photogallerypage.htm

then click on "pics from classes"

Trim, bouyancy, skills while maintaining both.

The students did their OW classes in Hawaii and then did some extra open water dives. They were asked by the DM on the boat where they did their cave training!!

This is not rocket science. It's about an instructor that knows the difference, and that cares and takes the TIME to show their students how to dive properly.

Most don't know the difference due to the minimal entrance requirements for instructing. Ahhh, now you've got me going on another subject....



gedunk once bubbled...


GUE has no entry level OW course either. The DIRF is a great program but not even close to a complete OW course. Therefore, everyone that takes one of GUEs courses, was originally taught by some other agency.

You can start bragging that GUE has improved the dive industrys entry level OW programs when they have implemented a successful entry level OW program.

Until that time, they are only training people who somehow survived OW training from other agencies.
 
gedunk
"GUE has no entry level OW course either."

I believe that is what Detroit Diver was indicating, included within the blanket statement was GUE as well.

"Therefore, everyone that takes one of GUEs courses, was originally taught by some other agency"
That is correct... The DIR/F class takes the basic skills (taught by other agencies) and improves upon them, much like building and refining upon an existing foundation. An analogy would be a foundation built with pillars. OW gives you a few pillars which will support diving activities. The DIR/F class adds a number of additional pillars which makes the diving foundation all the stronger thus adding to the strength of the skill set as well as to the enjoyment of the activity. Actually there are those Instructors that are GUE trained yet issue PADI cards. There is a noticiable difference in those "PADI" students. I believe it comes down to the instructor and their personal degree of attention and pride that comes forth when they know they have given their students a strong skill set that will serve them for their diving career.


"You can start bragging that GUE has improved the dive industrys entry level OW programs... "
It ain't bragging if it's true...:D (no need to start flaming me, just having some fun)

Actually you may have stumbled upon something Gedunk, about an OW class. With the popularity of the DIR/F classes, would that not be a natural progression? (thinking out loud)

Best Regards
Don
 
scubatexastony once bubbled...
I didn't know the Beverly Hills gang invented the FROG KICK! Nor did I have a clue that they mastered and defined trim and bouyancy! CHIT....Wassa blade? :wink:
Blow wind up someone else posterior.

tony
Yikes! Of course i didn't mean that.

Sorry if I was being annoying. I guess I got a little carried away. MikeF, please understand that I wasn't explaining how to do a flutter kick to you because I didn't think you knew what it meant! I was just, well, yeah. I guess I didn't do a very good job, I'm sorry!

btw, GUE is developing its own OW curriculum. I think it's being tested here in Seattle and I think at least one other location. That's what I hear, anyway. :)

margaret
 
Whirling Girl once bubbled...
Apology in advance for the length of this post.
Hmmmm. I'm trying to answer your question and it's hard. As far as I'm aware, there's DIR, and there's non-DIR. Those are the only two 'ways', though non-DIR isn't defineable. So I guess we would have to be discussing specific examples of gear and technique in order to set out the reasons why DIR makes more sense in that specific instance. So, non-DIR guy asks 'why do you do that or use this or think that' and DIR guy says 'well, here's the reasons why we do/use/think this stuff and here's how it comes in handy.'

That's kind of my point. Not all non-DIR is the same.
So I'll pick three examples, and forgive me for picking obvious ones, but this is just for illustration:

ISSUE 1: Flutter vs. Frog Kick. In my PADI openwater course, I was taught only to flutter kick, meaning, long slow vertical (up and down) kicks using the large muscles in the thighs and hips. This comes naturally to most people and unless they are taught something different, that's how they are going to kick. But when you're diving in Puget Sound, there is no better way to completely stir up the deep silt that covers much of the bottom than to flutter kick. Flutter kicking drives water downward and upward on every stroke and thus, in certain environments, it leaves a huge cloud behind you. It happens every dang time. (In a wreck, the flutter kick also brings a shower of debris down from the ceiling to mingle nicely with the crap stirred up from the floor, but I digress)

And perhaps there is nothing wrong with this, unless a) there are other divers in the vicinity who you have just silted out, b) you decide to turn around and happen to head back the way you came and end up in your own cloud of silt or c) you have some kind of charlie foxtrot occur in the middle of your dive, the team stops and tries to deal with it, and the silt cloud you created catches up with you and suddenly you're in zero vis.

DIR poses the hypothesis that learning to kick in ways designed not to stir up silt or rain down debris is, well, good.

So, why does frog kicking work?

It uses your fins to propel you forward by pushing water from side to side, not up and down. Combined with horizontal trim, it keeps the water movement off the floor and ceiling entirely.

ISSUE 2: Horizontal Trim vs. Vertical or Semi-Vertical. DIRF teaches you to dive horizontal in the water at nearly all times and not to use your hands to maneuver. Why? Several reasons, not all of which I will attempt to explain, but they include: efficiency of effort, more accurate buoyancy control, much less resistance through the water, more even offgassing of nitrogen in all the compartments of the body during deco stops, and more efficient use of lung/alveoli surface in the exchange of blood gasses during deco stops. (The most important reason, however, is that you look cool. way cool.)

ISSUE 3: Split Fins vs. Jetfins. Here's an equipment issue. Split fins are touted as being easier to kick (meaning flutterkick) and the fins for moving fastest through the water. This might very well be true. However, on most recreational, cave and wreck dives, getting from point a to point b in a straight line and in the shortest amount of time possible is not usually the goal. And if you make diving with horizontal trim and using the DIR kicks described above, you must have traditional fins.

I have done, or attempted, all the DIR kicks in split fins. It's doable with the exception of the back kick, though I admit that my ability to fin backwards still leaves alot to be desired. I have yet to see someone kick backwards successfully in splits. The other kicks, when done using split fins, are a) harder to do and b) not done as cleanly. Why? It's not because split fins suck. It's because frog kicks are smaller, more controlled movements and actually require more resistance against the water, not less, in order to propel you forward or backward or spin you around on a dime. This is also one of the reasons why frog kicking requires alot less effort and is much more efficient than flutter kicking.

Don't believe me? Learn to frog kick (properly!), then dive to a consistent depth, read your gauge, note your psi, and frog kick for, oh, 5-10 minutes. turn around, read your gauge, note your psi, and then head back, this time flutter kicking to your heart's content, for the same amount of time. note your gauge at the end and see if you consumed more air in one direction or the other.

And make sure to do the flutter kick second, because otherwise, you'll be swimming through your own silt on the way back.

So. There are my three examples.

We use and teach all the techniques you mentioned right from the beginning but we don't call it DIR. We just call it good technique. Good finning technique , good trim and fins that work are things that all good divers have in common.
Right. Sounds good. Name one. Or describe one that is different than DIR but would work out as well.

There is amazing, successful cave exploration being done all over the world. Read the NSS-CDS journal and other publications. Check out some of the stuff being done NEST, CDG and independant projects all over. I guess the WKPP has (or had) the penetration record but you need to have the longest cave to get that no matter how good you are.
Also, recall that the WKPP system is dynamic, not static. DIR changes as experience teaches us what works and what doesn't. It's constantly being critiqued and analyzed. And show me another system based on the combined experience of JJ, George Irvine, Andrew G, and the other members of WKPP, SCRET and the other amazingly accomplished DIR dive teams around the world. There aren't any.

Lots of explorer seem to feel they don't need George and JJ. Some don't talk about what they do, give it a name or start certification agencies and equipment companies. They just explore and map caves. You don't hear about it because they're not on the internet telling you about it.
I believe you. But those 'subtle differences' would be the basis for a lively discussion. Name one. [/B]

ok. I use standard gases but they'r slightly different that the DIR standard gases because I don't bank 32%.
cool! go find some!
My former cave instructor for starters but I know and know of many.
See, the judgment that people perceive from DIR isn't really what they think it is. It has nothing to do with talent or experience or ability. Lots of naturally gifted, very experienced divers do things that the DIR approach would call 'unsafe'. It's generally not because they aren't talented or they are dumb, it's because they don't know any better. But it requires you to have an open mind and set your ego aside so that you can honestly consider the information and decide whether or not it's right.

Oh, I have a pretty good idea what DIR is. You're right, it might not have anything to do with talant or experience but maybe it should. Without the talant and experience you might not know if you're doing things the safest and/or most effective way or not. Without the talant and ability the methodology don't mean nearly as much. BTW there's a guy in Florida who works at EE. According to him he is a WKPP member. I don't know at what level but not too many would stand behind JJ's own counter and lie about such a thing. Anyway, New years eve he got stuck in the entrance restriction in Cow springs. I guess he was stuck for about 10 minutes. Well you need to know Cow springs to really appreciate this but let's say it was no way to show off. LOL. He told me the story when I was down there in January but I never asked how he got stuck. A couple weeks ago I was down there talking to some one else who was on the dive and I was told that it was his argon bottle that got stuck. His thinking was too rigid and he couldn't fit it through the hole. LOL Give that some thought.

My next post will be very short, I promise. :)

Margaret [/B][/QUOTE]
 
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