Finally dove with DIR buddies. What a mess!

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver once bubbled...


I don't have my old posts on this computer, but I think it was NAUI that was offering what they call a "DIR" class. I might be wrong on the agency, but I'll try to get the info later.

A while back I was talking to a NAUI instructor (who BTW is also a Diverite rep) and he claimed that the DIRF was derived from a NAUI program. He didn't name it but said he could show me the standards which he never did.

That said, there is a full page NAUI add in the latest issue of dive training where they prove they haven't got a clue as far as I'm concerned. Not only is the whole class kneeling on the bottom, which is typical and not a surprise, but their alternates and consols are hanging loose all over the place. That's something that I see in maybe 50% or more of the OW classes I see in the water. IMO, it's sloppy, dangerous and there is absoloutely no excuse for it.

If it were up to me I would immediately pull the ticket of every instructor who I saw take a student in the water this way without further discussion or explaination. Every instructor knows it's not right.

 

[detroit diver]

gedunk,

What's wrong is that there are GUE instructors ALSO teaching the skill and techniques from the DIRF class to brand new students, and they are doing it quite successfully, and within the requirements of PADI. It's not a GUE course, but the result is the same.

It won't be mainstream because that would take time, and time is money. This industry is going to less and less qualification, and not more. $99.00 weekend certifications? Who is going to take the time and teach this stuff properly with those prices?

GUE's class is done and in the box. I believe they will wait to release it until they think they have enough qualified instructors to handle the demand. They won't reduce their standards to bring out this class.


Nope, I'm not an instructor. But I do have eyes. And I can see what is going on during every OW (not confined) class that I have EVER seen (with the previous mentioned exception)-and I dive almost every week. Skills done standing up on the bottom and the instructor clapping "well done". Student crawling along the ground while the instructor watches and does nothing. Bouyancy control? Yeh, right. Forget trim, that's a foreign language. OOA? On the bottom while kneeling. Not ascending where the skill is really needed.

Don't tell me this stuff comes with experience. It only does if you're taught it and it's reinforced in the first place. And I'm not talking about a passing reference so that you can cover the requirements.

Let's face it. You can't teach what you're not required to know and demonstrate. And if you were required to know it properly, you would know the difference and would teach that to your students because that would be the correct thing to do. I'm not knocking the stuff you guys have to put up with in classes. There is a ton of responsibility.

But don't tell me that I can't see the difference.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Don't forget that up in Seattle AG has a SSI class and his instructors teach the way they do in the Fundamentals class.

It can and has been done. We had an instructor in Indy (since moved to San Diego) who taught the same way and it is possible under PADI requirements. The results are amazing if the instructor puts forth the effort and gives his students more credit than most agencies are willing. You would be amazed at what people can do if they are taught correctly and thoroughly from the start.

I believe the OW class is comming. When is anyones guess. I have seen some of the work AG has done. I don't think he would waste his time if there was no chance of it happening.

Maybe this weekend in Kankakee will reveal a little more info from some of the players involved.

detroit diver once bubbled...
gedunk,

What's wrong is that there are GUE instructors ALSO teaching the skill and techniques from the DIRF class to brand new students, and they are doing it quite successfully, and within the requirements of PADI. It's not a GUE course, but the result is the same.

It won't be mainstream because that would take time, and time is money. This industry is going to less and less qualification, and not more. $99.00 weekend certifications? Who is going to take the time and teach this stuff properly with those prices?

GUE's class is done and in the box. I believe they will wait to release it until they think they have enough qualified instructors to handle the demand. They won't reduce their standards to bring out this class.


Nope, I'm not an instructor. But I do have eyes. And I can see what is going on during every OW (not confined) class that I have EVER seen (with the previous mentioned exception)-and I dive almost every week. Skills done standing up on the bottom and the instructor clapping "well done". Student crawling along the ground while the instructor watches and does nothing. Bouyancy control? Yeh, right. Forget trim, that's a foreign language. OOA? On the bottom while kneeling. Not ascending where the skill is really needed.

Don't tell me this stuff comes with experience. It only does if you're taught it and it's reinforced in the first place. And I'm not talking about a passing reference so that you can cover the requirements.

Let's face it. You can't teach what you're not required to know and demonstrate. And if you were required to know it properly, you would know the difference and would teach that to your students because that would be the correct thing to do. I'm not knocking the stuff you guys have to put up with in classes. There is a ton of responsibility.

But don't tell me that I can't see the difference.

 

[ElectricZombie]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

That said, there is a full page NAUI add in the latest issue of dive training where they prove they haven't got a clue as far as I'm concerned. Not only is the whole class kneeling on the bottom, which is typical and not a surprise, but their alternates and consols are hanging loose all over the place. That's something that I see in maybe 50% or more of the OW classes I see in the water. IMO, it's sloppy, dangerous and there is absoloutely no excuse for it.

I just saw that ad...

You would think they would want to show decent divers in their promotional material...I guess not.

 

[bwerb]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...

I just saw that ad...

You would think they would want to show decent divers in their promotional material...I guess not.

What is the yellow "line" that the instructor is holding? Do these guys need an upline to find the surface...I mean...they could just stand-up right.

Actually...I don't understand some of Naui's ads...the one with the woman with no gear on floating holding onto the chunk of dock in the water...huh? The one with the guy looking at the huge surf with his tank attached so it's at the level of his knees...huh?

 

[ElectricZombie]

Yeah, looks like an upline. There are so many problems in this picture it's unreal.

I never understood the ad with the guy and the extremely low tank. It's like they are trying to say, "Choose NAUI and become an idiot!"

The ad with the woman said something like "I should have stayed with NAUI."...implying that the apparent stress she was in was caused by a faulty course by another agency. Not a very effective ad.

Whoever is in charge of doing NAUI's advertisements has no clue.

 

[downtime2]

Hello-
I am new to this board (what a topic to start off with huh?).
I certainly don't want to start off with a flame war, but my understanding is that GUE 'borrowed' many of it's training standards and procedures from NAUI Tec. In fact, much of it is a carbon copy of NAUI Tec's program. Furthermore, GUE actually had representatives from NAUI Tec help them create their training standards.

DT

 

[TCDiver1]

Go back and read what i posted guys. I never said OW isn't or even couldn't be taught the GUE way, i simply said GUE has no established OW course as of this date. It would be a wonderful world indeed if all divers, present and future would strive for across the board excellent skills. But that ain't gonna happen .... unless you guys know or have seen something i haven't.

Take a cross-section of society today and tell me what you see. Is it greater quality and more time spent achieving it? Quality isn't generally going up, thats for sure. Diving is no different, how could it be? Is it right? Of course not but IMO, it is far from as busted as you allude to.

Yeah dd, i've been diving awhile and i used to feel the way you do but i've changed how i think of who and what diving is. I've read enough of your postings over the last year to understand you believe if your skills are not at the DIRF level minimum, your skills are not jack-squat. I'm of the opinion that is not true. I believe divers with lesser skills than the DIRF minimum can lead safe, productive dive lives with the proper non-GUE training and the proper attitude.

Almost ten years of certifying students who also go on trips and get compliments from the boat operators and DM's is my acid test. Many of these people are my friends and family and have gotten along fine and most were taught, initially at least, from the bottom of the pool, years before GUE even existed. How do you explain that? They don't hammer the reef, they don't yo-yo out of control, most don't hoover gas and as such they get left alone by the operators and DM's as it should be.

No, IMO, there is a place for GUE, NAUI, PADI, etc as they exist today in the dive industry. Thats not to say improvements can't be made in any or all of them. Thats not to say some LDS's and or instructors shouldn't be run out on a rail for their lack of committment to instruction .... they should.

Ahhh ... why am i wasting my time, your mind is made up, so lets go diving. Come on up to TC anytime and i'll be happy show you what i'm talking about. Your not gonna see perfect skills but you will see alot of people having a blast. You do still dive for fun don't you?

 

[detroit diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


..........
If it were up to me I would immediately pull the ticket of every instructor who I saw take a student in the water this way without further discussion or explaination. Every instructor knows it's not right.

You sure about that? Based on most of the advertisements that I see in dive mags, this is the norm. And these are ads from PADI, NAUI and SSI agencies. Aren't THEY supposed to know the difference?

 

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver once bubbled...


You sure about that? Based on most of the advertisements that I see in dive mags, this is the norm. And these are ads from PADI, NAUI and SSI agencies. Aren't THEY supposed to know the difference?

LOL, I stand corrected. Let me rephrase...they should know. I would still pull their tickets though.