Fatality off of Point Lobos, California

[3D diver]

I've shortly talked to surviving buddy his word were "we were in 50ft of water, he (deceased) started going down out of air on a stop, i donated , we surfaced, i could not hold him up, it all went so fast"

I'm guessing the speed of this incident likely explains why weights weren't dropped, bouyancy devices not inflated, etc.

That the diver failed after being provided an air source makes me wonder whether he had a medical problem beyond OOA---embolism or heart attack.

 

[finnks]

You should still be able to find and release at least some weights ... if you followed standard training you should know where and how before you enter the water together.


...SNIP...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

While probably true, this may not be. I dove with someone once who wore 9mm of wetsuits because that was what it took for him to be neutral in salt water. Could easily see helpful people suggesting to newb that steel tanks are great - at which point you have someone rather negative with no releasable weight other than their tank.

My understanding was this was a fit young man, who may have been wearing a semi-adequate (read - thin) wetsuit. Quite possible he would sink without any weights. Might not sink like a rock, but it sure would seem like it if you were trying to hold him at the surface.

I'd certainly suggest to anyone like this that they should have redundant orally inflatable buoyancy devices. It's not just for tech divers anymore!

-Finn

 

[tye1138]

I'm guessing the speed of this incident likely explains why weights weren't dropped, bouyancy devices not inflated, etc.

That the diver failed after being provided an air source makes me wonder whether he had a medical problem beyond OOA---embolism or heart attack.

Perhaps, but the OOA diver being injured outside of the simple struggle for life is hard to diagnose.

The more data comes in, the clearer the picture. It's clear to me, the OOA diver was fatigued.

When things stop working; IE the inflator button, the first thing that happens is, the body starts working harder. So all of a sudden the fatigued diver is getting more fatigued as they work to stay on the surface. Obviously the buddy didn't have a DIR rig setup, so they had to be close, which over-complicated the issue.

For all we know, the OOA diver was frantically trying to remove his gear. For all we know, he had an integrated weight system that wouldn't ditch.

I don't know how many of you have actually tried to tread water at the surface with all your gear on and a completely deflated BC, its a lot of work. Those are drills I always did with my students in the pool, so they'd understand the validity of an inflated BC. The emergency bobbing/inflating technique for some reason, people forget about or maybe aren't taught.

Plus, new divers rarely understand the whole buoyancy game and properly weighting oneself.

 

[eelnoraa]

While probably true, this may not be. I dove with someone once who wore 9mm of wetsuits because that was what it took for him to be neutral in salt water. Could easily see helpful people suggesting to newb that steel tanks are great - at which point you have someone rather negative with no releasable weight other than their tank.

My understanding was this was a fit young man, who may have been wearing a semi-adequate (read - thin) wetsuit. Quite possible he would sink without any weights. Might not sink like a rock, but it sure would seem like it if you were trying to hold him at the surface.

I'd certainly suggest to anyone like this that they should have redundant orally inflatable buoyancy devices. It's not just for tech divers anymore!

-Finn

What!!!!!

 

[tye1138]

What!!!!!

LOL, yea, I couldn't think of a comment on that either!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't know how many of you have actually tried to tread water at the surface with all your gear on and a completely deflated BC, its a lot of work. Those are drills I always did with my students in the pool, so they'd understand the validity of an inflated BC. The emergency bobbing/inflating technique for some reason, people forget about or maybe aren't taught.

Plus, new divers rarely understand the whole buoyancy game and properly weighting oneself.

Manually inflating your BCD is a basic skill that's taught in OW class ... and it's one I'll bet few people ever practice again once class is over. But there's a reason it's taught.

As for the weighting issue, most times I have to deal with overweighted divers it's because they weren't taught how to descend properly and end up kicking their feet ... a common reflex action among new divers. Kicking has a tendency to send you up while you're trying to go down ... and a lot of people try to fix that problem with more lead. This only causes other problems.

Doing a weight check will identify whether or not a diver is carrying too much lead ... and that is supposed to be taught at the OW level. If a diver is carrying too much lead to overcome descending issues, then the appropriate thing would be to remove the lead and work on proper descent technique.

All of this is supposed to be covered in OW class ... how well it's covered varies with instructor ... how well it's understood and applied after class depends on the diver ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[billt4sf]

The problem is, our training system is built on buddy reliance, not self reliance.

No, it's built on instructor reliance.

the solution is to add serious rescue skills and complete self reliance teaching to the standard OW course. Teaching people from day one how to do everything themselves. How to rescue themselves in an emergency, how to switch air sources, how to bail out of gear if trapped and surface with a backup air source. .....
We're talking about waterproof check lists you keep with your gear, a pony bottle with a backup reg setup in a DIR config, a decent knife and scissors, emergency beacon, easy access weight removal, etc.

This is what should be taught in an AOW course. I took an AOW course and I was still practicing my poor habits (the 6 I listed above.) There was nothing "advanced" about what we learned.

Oh, by the way, I thought of something else crucial that I did not learn in my OW or AOW courses: how to set up my kit. What side the reg goes on; does the octo go over or under my arm? how do you get that damn tank into those straps? etc. Just being honest here folks.

I said I didn't LEARN it -- not that I wasn't TAUGHT it. Any teacher knows there is a big difference between the two.

 

[tye1138]

Manually inflating your BCD is a basic skill that's taught in OW class ... and it's one I'll bet few people ever practice again once class is over. But there's a reason it's taught.

I don't think anyone practices it. If it weren't for teaching and constantly being around students of various kinds, I would have no reason to practice it either.

As for the weighting issue, most times I have to deal with overweighted divers it's because they weren't taught how to descend properly and end up kicking their feet ... a common reflex action among new divers. Kicking has a tendency to send you up while you're trying to go down ... and a lot of people try to fix that problem with more lead. This only causes other problems.

I agree for sure. This is why your students need to fully comprehend buoyancy, period. Nobody graduated my class without understanding it, without building their own weight belts based after the formulas they learned in class. Without me seeing them perform the skills over and over again, even if I'm an invisible "tourist" amongst the group when on their final check OW dives.

No, it's built on instructor reliance.

If you've got a bad instructor, I can see how that would be an issue.

I took an AOW course and I was still practicing my poor habits (the 6 I listed above.) There was nothing "advanced" about what we learned.

It really depends on the agency and who teaches the course. When I first got started in diving, I immediately took at rescue and master diver course because my goal was to DM for my instructor friend. Both were two day, hard-core classes and both were taught by one hell of an excellent instructor. The first day was all training, 1/2 was in the classroom and 1/2 was in the pool, going over the basics of rescue. On day 2, our instructor paired each one of us up with a DM who was going to play the victim. The whole day we did drill upon drill in some pretty rough seas. I was shocked how difficult and dangerous it was. Some students couldn't deal with the difficulty level. I remember a husband and wife bailing on the OW section because they just weren't comfortable. Me being a fish out of water and very young at the time, I didn't mind the roughness of the course. I can't imagine a more challenging course for an almost just certified OW student.

I haven't taught very many advanced courses, its hard to bring the right people together in order to make it worth while. I think some dive shops don't care, they plan the course and if people sign up, they do it no matter what.

Oh, by the way, I thought of something else crucial that I did not learn in my OW or AOW courses: how to set up my kit. What side the reg goes on; does the octo go over or under my arm? how do you get that damn tank into those straps? etc. Just being honest here folks.

Yea, well... sounds like you need to take another course from someone else then.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't think anyone practices it. If it weren't for teaching and constantly being around students of various kinds, I would have no reason to practice it either.

Of course there's a reason to practice it. Besides OOA, what happens if your inflator valve sticks open? You disconnect the inflator hose, and then you have to manually inflate your BCD. This happened to me just a few months ago up in Vancouver Island ... on the far side of nowhere. I ended up doing a whole dive without my inflator hose connected to the BCD ... manually inflating as needed. That's practice.

Here's the thing ... do students understand why they're doing these drills? Do they do it just because they have to in order to pass the class? Or do they comprehend the reasons why these skills are taught ... and why it's important to get comfortable doing them?

OW students lack context ... and the only context they'll have once class is over is what they got in class. That's the foundation upon which their skills will be built as they continue diving. I had a student last year struggled with mask clearing. We worked at it and eventually she got it OK ... but you could tell she dreaded doing it. I made her do it again and again. After a while she got mad at me and asked me what I was expecting her to do. I told her I expected to see her clear her mask like it was no big deal ... because after this class was done if she had to clear her mask I wouldn't be there ... and her buddy might not be either. Next time I signaled for her to flood her mask she pulled it off completely, put it back on, cleared it, gave me an OK, and then gave me a one-finger salute. I figured now she's ready ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DandyDon]

Originally Posted by NWGratefulDiver
Manually inflating your BCD is a basic skill that's taught in OW class ... and it's one I'll bet few people ever practice again once class is over. But there's a reason it's taught.

I don't think anyone practices it. If it weren't for teaching and constantly being around students of various kinds, I would have no reason to practice it either.

We do, first dive of any trip - on land/boat, then in the water, along with weight ditching - because of the large portion of fatalities found with weights still on.